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Unfortunately no one can be told what FluxBB is - you have to see it for yourself.

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#1 2019-08-15 00:06:33

oli_v_ier
Member
Registered: 2008-09-21
Posts: 42

FluxBB with tables and server side image compression and ...

Hi,

Here's our fluxBB forum, integrated with Dokuwiki : https://www.randonner-leger.org/forum/
For non french speaker : if you wish to register, precede the first e-mail with the keyword 'wiki' .

https://github.com/randonnerleger/forum

The main features are :
- image upload system with server side compression (adaptation of this code : https://fossil.kd2.org/fotoo/wiki?name=Fotoo+Hosting )
- when quoting, a link to the original message is displayed
- when sending a private message, the sender will receive his message in copy in his mailbox
- creating tables is possible, see screenshot of edit mode below (possible copy / paste from excel or calc), example : https://www.randonner-leger.org/forum/v … p?id=36386
- tags in the titles
- responsive theme
- etc

7wenpHrJU.tables.png

smile

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#2 2019-08-15 17:48:51

Franz
Lead developer
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-05-13
Posts: 6,664
Website

Re: FluxBB with tables and server side image compression and ...

Nice customization! smile


fluxbb.de | develoPHP

"As code is more often read than written it's really important to write clean code."

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#3 2019-09-03 16:35:34

JJones
Member
Registered: 2019-04-28
Posts: 59

Re: FluxBB with tables and server side image compression and ...

Why on earth would you utilize < table > as opposed to css rows and columns?

Your site has all of that beautiful CSS ... and you just plop a < table > in the middle of it?

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#4 2019-09-10 14:14:18

GWR
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2010-08-06
Posts: 209

Re: FluxBB with tables and server side image compression and ...

A table is a table - and divs are boxes.

So if you want to show data stuff then you use < table >. You want to layout boxes of content? Use < div > (or other containers)).


bye
Ron

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#5 2019-09-10 14:54:01

JJones
Member
Registered: 2019-04-28
Posts: 59

Re: FluxBB with tables and server side image compression and ...

The point of it is that a < table > can royally screw over a small screen layout .... which basically means that there is no way to take your tables inline on a small screen and make them readable ...

<div class="flex-table row" role="rowgroup">
  <div class="flex-row first" role="cell">DATA 1</div>
  <div class="flex-row" role="cell">DATA 2</div>
  <div class="flex-row" role="cell">DATA 3</div>
  <div class="flex-row" role="cell">DATA 4</div>
</div>

pure CSS "table" and you could theoretically make so many cells on a row and still be readable on phones...

Using < table > you just eliminated 3/4 of the global population from usage unless they are reading your forums from their office / home computer. ( Great Job! )

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#6 2019-09-10 20:28:44

GWR
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2010-08-06
Posts: 209

Re: FluxBB with tables and server side image compression and ...

There is a reason for the table tag being valid. There was a time in which web designers and web developers put everything into tables for layouting. This time is gone.
It was replaced by a time of all of the above people trying to put everything into div tags ... which is also wrong if used in a stubborn way ignoring possible options.

Eg you could wrap a table into a {div style="overflow-x:auto;"} or so. Why? As said tables are used to display tabular data. Data might be sortable, might use pagination, ... and often data should not wrap around. Dunno how readers (for blind or otherwise eye-disabled people) like to read div-"tables" compared to a normal "table".

Others seem to have thought about that too (in far better English than mine):
https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2019/0 … terns-web/


bye
Ron

Last edited by GWR (2019-09-10 20:28:52)

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#7 2019-09-11 05:46:41

JJones
Member
Registered: 2019-04-28
Posts: 59

Re: FluxBB with tables and server side image compression and ...

The Validity of < table > and < div > is irrelevant ... nor is it even accurate to claim that tables remain in use due to a data format ... in fact, HTML5 blew that claim clear out of the water. But all of that is still irrelevant.

Quoting a "blog" as having a valued opinion is probably not going to serve your point of view well. You will notice the author of that article is a low grade designer from Singapore... I strongly suggest you take a peek at some of his work before you claim he has any value: https://github.com/huijing/slides/blob/ … index.html

The point of display is to do exactly that ... to "display" information in an easily read way ... The problem we have in modern day are those damn mobile devices. https://gs.statcounter.com/platform-mar … ile-tablet

Android ( which is obviously going to be bias ) pushes those stats to be much higher ( 28% higher ), and claiming that the vast majority of the data served on desktop platforms are similar to Smart TVs, which is Video Streams & Games ( The video Game industry makes global society a hell of a lot worse than we think )...

Its obviously clear that "mobile devices" are the primary source of internet viewing ( excluding movies, and gaming )... which now becomes your specific problem using a < table > layout.

In no case should "overflow-x:auto;" be used in ANY HTML tag in todays devices ... Scrolling Left/Right on a website could / would / should result in undesired effects outside of a mobile app. Left and Right scrolls on mobile devices trigger menu shifting on Android & Apple Devices once the viewport is exceeded on the swipe which is just going to annoy the viewer if not literally just swipe the viewer clean off of the browser.

As for "Pagination" you have multiple options to break rows into groups of pages, albeit, there are very few examples in which case this SHOULD be done ( I am not entirely sure Forums should be doing it - See Flarium as an example  )...

As for Sorting Table data, its actually far easier with CSS2 and two native Javascript functions. And even a better perk that by default is mobile friendly. Welcome to HTML5 where "flex" rules the browser show and completely outdates < table > as well as conforms to a 1 website = 1 display that operates across multiple devices in uniformity ( less work for designers & developers ). All you have managed to do is build a table display that at best can be viewed by 1/3 ( and shrinking ) global population.

PS: if you had that many columns in a row that you needed x-scroll you would use "flex-wrap" ... The last thing FlexBB needs is more outdated functionality & Display from the late 90s.

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#8 2019-09-11 21:40:10

GWR
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2010-08-06
Posts: 209

Re: FluxBB with tables and server side image compression and ...

I did not care who the author was - as I just took one of the hits google provided to me when having a look on what others think about it.

Seems "docs.google.com"  seems still to use the table tags. HTML5 is also not deprecating table tags nor does it say "do not use it". It's existence does not only rely on keeping it for backwards compatibility.

Sometimes the data presentation in a "tabular manner" is more important than to avoid a horizontal scroll bar. In that case I would prefer to not stack cols beneath each other.
Same way I do not want the file manager in "details mode" to stack the information on narrow windows as then the list elements become higher.

Sometimes it just does not suit - and as "author" of the table I decide whether I want to use a "table" (does not break on small resolutions) or a stack of div boxes which nicely fell apart as the clients device wants.


Regarding sorting: What is faster, to retrieve the DOM of the table cols or the "nth div with the class X" ? Maybe even browsers can render added rows in tables faster than added divs dunno maybe it is vice versa.


Regarding mobile devices: If you want to show of big data tables then this is nothing the users want to edit on their 6 inch display. Therefor you use a "real" computer. Same for painting or designing big size posters/ads: do not do that on a phone, do that on a big screen.
So yes, if you have a forum which is used by mainly phones or tablets and the people just use the "tables" to display stuff in a "split-apart" way ("blocks") then use divs - if they most often pass some statistical data and posts are often read in the office on computers, then there is almost no harm in using a table tag.

As said there might be issues with these readers for disabled people - depending on the age of their devices the classical "table" versus "div stacks" should win.


BTW: I still prefer the "img" tags and instead of "span+styling" i like the {i} tag to make things italic - that is 90s. yes.


bye
Ron

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#9 2019-09-12 05:48:35

JJones
Member
Registered: 2019-04-28
Posts: 59

Re: FluxBB with tables and server side image compression and ...

Having to break this down in PARTS: ( This really sucks )

GWR wrote:

I did not care who the author was - as I just took one of the hits google provided to me when having a look on what others think about it.

If you don't care who the Author is, then there is no reason to quote a source. Perhaps quoting the author of "Mien Kemf" is everything. When choices are based on facts, the result is better choices, when choices are based on opinions, the result is better fools.

GWR wrote:

Seems "docs.google.com"  seems still to use the table tags. HTML5 is also not deprecating table tags nor does it say "do not use it". It's existence does not only rely on keeping it for backwards compatibility.

Google Docs was constructed in 2006, to compete with "quickbooks" .... Are yous suggesting that we also revert back to steam engines because it was the original "engine" ?

GWR wrote:

Sometimes the data presentation in a "tabular manner" is more important than to avoid a horizontal scroll bar. In that case I would prefer to not stack cols beneath each other.
Same way I do not want the file manager in "details mode" to stack the information on narrow windows as then the list elements become higher.

Presentation is EVERYTHING in Web Based Systems .... to prove this point, look at the scripts you have known in the last 10 years ... Notice how the ONLY thing that remains constant is what "looks good" to the majority? ( Not that i ever agree with the "majority" ever being anything more than mindless idiots, but your "mod" success would be based on what the "majority" believe.

GWR wrote:

Sometimes it just does not suit - and as "author" of the table I decide whether I want to use a "table" (does not break on small resolutions) or a stack of div boxes which nicely fell apart as the clients device wants.

If your release was based on your own personal preference, why release it to the public? ( seems hypocritical )


GWR wrote:

Regarding sorting: What is faster, to retrieve the DOM of the table cols or the "nth div with the class X" ? Maybe even browsers can render added rows in tables faster than added divs dunno maybe it is vice versa.

Anything the BROWSER can do on its own is ALWAYS faster.


GWR wrote:

Regarding mobile devices: If you want to show of big data tables then this is nothing the users want to edit on their 6 inch display. Therefor you use a "real" computer. Same for painting or designing big size posters/ads: do not do that on a phone, do that on a big screen.
So yes, if you have a forum which is used by mainly phones or tablets and the people just use the "tables" to display stuff in a "split-apart" way ("blocks") then use divs - if they most often pass some statistical data and posts are often read in the office on computers, then there is almost no harm in using a table tag.

Notice how my reply was specifically directed at "website browsing"? Notice how your mod is specifically for a "website"? Notice how the stats I quoted showed nearly 3/4 of internet browsing was done via "small devices"? Notice how your response boils down to ( Users should change their behavior to suit my development ). Not only is that narcissistic, its also a poor quality found in most modern day Developers. There is nothing wrong with building functionality for your own benefit, but in that choice, it should never be confused with a title of "Developer".   

GWR wrote:

As said there might be issues with these readers for disabled people - depending on the age of their devices the classical "table" versus "div stacks" should win.

This is by FAR the most intellect statement i have ever heard anyone on these forums make! This isnt exclusively a "disability" display problem, its a UNIVERSAL Problem: 1) Poor Eyesight is more common than you think ( see the stats on people who wear glasses ), Old Age ( notice how the people with large amounts of money ( funding ) are unable to access your information?, Mobile Devices are technically based on tunnel visioned ( notice how people that spend more than 2 hours a day on their phone have difficulty focusing in life? .... ALL of these issues have direct impacts on HOW you design a script. At the end of the day, it is NOT a developer who solves these problems, but a DESIGNER. Sadly for us, and this conversation, I am NOT a designer! I simply comprehend the problems, but would have no solutions as "design" is not my area of expertise.


GWR wrote:

BTW: I still prefer the "img" tags and instead of "span+styling" i like the {i} tag to make things italic - that is 90s. yes.

Use of < img > and/or < i > tags are not "90s" style usage .... holding to 90s format of layouts and ignoring the majority of user behaviors is. ( Blame the Phone Industry, not the asshat that is addicted to having a phone stuck up his arse for the majority of their life )

In most cases of your claims, I do not completely disagree with you, however, holding to a point of view that directly contradicts facts & stats is a dangerous and counter-productive mentality that does not serve FluxBB in any way, but in fact leads it in a more self-destructive path.

I already have enough problems trying to convince the FluxBB Devs to alter their path to more modern approaches, the LAST THING we need is modders to join their crusade of out-dated practices.

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#10 2019-09-12 06:23:18

Franz
Lead developer
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-05-13
Posts: 6,664
Website

Re: FluxBB with tables and server side image compression and ...

JJones wrote:

Notice how my reply was specifically directed at "website browsing"? Notice how your mod is specifically for a "website"? Notice how the stats I quoted showed nearly 3/4 of internet browsing was done via "small devices"? Notice how your response boils down to ( Users should change their behavior to suit my development ). Not only is that narcissistic, its also a poor quality found in most modern day Developers. There is nothing wrong with building functionality for your own benefit, but in that choice, it should never be confused with a title of "Developer".

For somebody claiming to argue based on facts, it seems a bit weird to quote average stats for the entire web when discussing the choices made on one website - whose owner may be better informed about their specific user base, device usage and preferences.

That said, I have to ask you to be more respectful (in tone and choice of words) when it comes to a) people you communicate with on these forums, b) other people ("developers") and c) well-respected authors of blog posts whose gender you are too lazy to correctly research.

If you are unable to do so, I will issue a temporary ban.


fluxbb.de | develoPHP

"As code is more often read than written it's really important to write clean code."

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#11 2019-09-12 08:26:29

JJones
Member
Registered: 2019-04-28
Posts: 59

Re: FluxBB with tables and server side image compression and ...

I will quote the English Dictionary for easy reference:

noun: narcissism
excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one's physical appearance.
synonyms:    vanity, self-love, self-admiration, self-adulation, self-absorption, self-obsession, conceit, self-conceit, self-centredness, self-regard, egotism, egoism, egocentricity, egomania
antonyms:    modesty, diffidence
PSYCHOLOGY
selfishness, involving a sense of entitlement, a lack of empathy, and a need for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
PSYCHOANALYSIS
self-centeredness arising from failure to distinguish the self from external objects, either in very young babies or as a feature of mental disorder.

By his own admission he CHOSE to accept the label of the word usage:

GWR wrote:

I did not care who the author was - as I just took one of the hits google provided to me when having a look on what others think about it.

GWR wrote:

Regarding mobile devices: If you want to show of big data tables then this is nothing the users want to edit on their 6 inch display. Therefor you use a "real" computer. Same for painting or designing big size posters/ads: do not do that on a phone, do that on a big screen.
So yes, if you have a forum which is used by mainly phones or tablets and the people just use the "tables" to display stuff in a "split-apart" way ("blocks") then use divs - if they most often pass some statistical data and posts are often read in the office on computers, then there is almost no harm in using a table tag.

we have an English idiom that describes such labels specifically (" If the shoe fits, wear it") if you believe that accurate word usage is a form of personal attacks, then you are free to act in whatever you see fit as the "best interest of this website" ( its not my job to educate you on the concept of what a personal attack is by definition ), its not as if you have lead the way with the best decisions in development ( not a personal attack, but a question of your development choices ), why start with administration ethics now? ( a question of your Administrative Choices ). Its not as if this community is active based on your current choices, or maybe it really is ( repeated 2x for emphasis ).

FACT: global stats on internet traffic is based on ISP ( i quoted the source of their "averages" ) and not of the clear bias sources such as Android to avoid having to justify their bias ( there are more Active Android Devices than their are Living Humans). While one REGION might have slight differences in stats, even at the minimum of 2/3 there is no way for that statistic to be mathematically slighted in a way that would claim that ANY website would be utilizing anything other than small devices by MAJORITY .... They just simply pass to the next site to obtain the same information from another source.

His choice to serve ONLY the minority is simply his own choice ( i clearly stated that ), but is a BAD idea for FluxBB in the simple fact that you will eventually suffer the same fate as his choice ( limited popularity, and thus limited development ( have you not looked around here? or simply ignoring that fact? ).

Quality always increases Demand.

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#12 2019-09-12 21:01:34

GWR
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2010-08-06
Posts: 209

Re: FluxBB with tables and server side image compression and ...

I do not feel offended - if that was in question.

(BTW Franz and also my person are German so English is not our mother tongue - this might explain cultural differences and also potential misinterpretation of words/terms - of course I can only speak for myself when it comes to a lacking English skill).


I have to back Franz' argument on site maintainers/blog owners knowing best what their users are. Assume you have a forum for some intranet thing. All users their are secretaries, IT guys, normal employees. They won't visit these intranet websites with their phones - they visit them on their normal desktop or laptop computers to fetch some documents, to check some discussion thing. They go home and stop visiting the intranet stuff as this is the "serious work"-stuff. They are no hipsters with only tablets, they are no design office with just Apple computers - they have some business computers by HP, Dell or whatever.
If these intranet pages contain tabular data, then it can be displayed in a manner as if it was an Excel table - classic approach. They do not require div boxes to stack on smaller devices, all of them have a screen following the LAW of the country regarding "working on computers" (eg in Germany we have some stuff like the "Bildschirmarbeitsplatzverordnung"). So screen sizes have a certain minimum, same for resolution etc.
If your user base is limited to these computers - why not use "tables".


Yet I understand here that this is a "artifcially constructed example" (ok not ... the intranet in a bigger German technology research institute has exactly this setup :-)). And yes, there might be no harm to have <div> boxes to form a "table". But there is also no harm to use the table tag for what it was invented - and for what it is supported for years now. No need to put everything into a div just "because you can".

You know that poems have verses? You know that the peom author might not want to break lines as there is some visual clue hidden in the layout of his words? People decide how they want their data to be understand - they created/collected the data, they build up connections between properties and words. So it is their matter on how they want to display the data.
This is no narcisstic "first the author, then the audience" approach to a problem - it is most often a problem of someone having thought over its data for hours and hours (distance of certain cols to each other etc) - and someone just reading the data within some minutes.
And here I am still talking about data (so something really having benefits from being displayed in a tabular arrangement).
Displaying this stuff in a "bb-code"-based forum post which automatically breaks stuff according to display sizes makes every data-layout-decision (what is in col 1 and what in col 4) obsolete.


See above not as a "tables are always better" but as a pro argument for "tables have valid reasons depending on the data to display".
And do not forget: I understand that stacking divs will surely have their reason to exist when it comes to display certain/specific data sets.


bye
Ron

Last edited by GWR (2019-09-12 21:08:33)

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