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#1 2009-10-20 21:53:27

Mpok
Member
From: France
Registered: 2008-05-12
Posts: 389

[Proposal] : Localized admin

Hey devs (and all),

While your two recent announcements related "with localization in mind" (sic), i've to talk (once more) about the admin panel...
You must be consistent in your words : u want international support and good localization, ok, let's do it (and thanks for the last announce, which is further motivation for the future..).

The point is : non-localization of the admin panel is a BAD THING...

I've read the discussion about that, and saw ur answer : "compatibility pbms".

I have to say it's a bad excuse, which seems to be driven by "préjugés" (sorry, don't know the word in english.. means decisions are done before looking at the facts).
1) 90% of the mods (and even 99% if u stick on the more popular ones) DON'T TOUCH the admin files.
2) in any case, the mods HAVE TO BE modified, the change of UTF-8 support is far enough to need it.

So, "compatibility" is not a valuable argue.

In other hands, providing a localized admin panel (so, translating the "admin_xxx.php" files) is a BIG IMPROVE for international communities...
... and they will DO IT !

So, the question is in fact :
- do they (the communities) have to translate the admin files "inline" ?
- or should they have classic language files to translate ?
EVERYONE will choose the second solution.. obviously. If this is proposed.

(and translating inline is not always good, see our "mea culpa" from fluxbb.fr in past discussion about the word "guest" in 1.2)

WE (french community, fluxbb.fr) PROPOSE to LOCALIZE ADMIN FILES... (completely, like 1.3 fashion).

Anyway, we will do it for us... wink
But it would be better motivated if our work was integrated in future release (1.4.1 ?)

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#2 2009-10-20 22:34:32

Smartys
Former Developer
Registered: 2008-04-27
Posts: 3,139
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

I'm afraid you're wrong: backwards compatibility is not an excuse wink

90% of the mods (and even 99% if u stick on the more popular ones) DON'T TOUCH the admin files.

There are quite a few mods that do. I just looked at the top 10 on PunRes and 1 of them (Reputation Mod) modifies admin_options.php. There are a lot of modifications that add one or two options to the admin_options.php page rather than create a separate plugin. You're also ignoring people that may have made custom modifications.

in any case, the mods HAVE TO BE modified, the change of UTF-8 support is far enough to need it.

Untrue. For most modifications, UTF-8 by itself will not necessitate any changes. Some modifications may need to make new releases to improve compatibility with certain multibyte charsets, but that's the extent of it.

In contrast, rewriting the admin files to allow for internationalization will:
1. Slow down the development process for 1.4 even more.
2. Cause anyone upgrading to have to replace their entire set of admin files, overwriting any modifications (this is the far more onerous burden).
3. Cause all existing modifications that alter the admin section to have to be rewritten

I agree that internationalization is important and that 2.0 should be able to be fully internationalized, but 1.4 should maintain backwards compatibility as it was intended to.

Last edited by Smartys (2009-10-20 22:34:44)

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#3 2009-10-20 22:52:28

Plazzmex
Member
Registered: 2008-07-24
Posts: 85

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

I agree with Smartys.
But, how long we will wait for 2.0 ? It can take up to year or even more to see the 2.0 version released. even 1.4 doesn't release yet, and we are waiting for it almost an year.

I am very scared to think that we will remain without internationalization for a very long time, but i believe in FluxBB team. and i believe you will do it in the end.

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#4 2009-10-20 23:02:33

Franz
Lead developer
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-05-13
Posts: 6,744
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

The priority is to get v1.4 out. It's as simple as that.

After that, the priority will be to tie up some loose ends and then work with all given man-power on v2.0.
Maybe some of the other FluxBB team members will be willing to modify v1.4 and create a new version that introduces heavily requested features like salted passwords and an internationalized administration panel, but obviously breaks backwards compatibility (for those who can life with that). Don't get me wrong, though: Absolutely no promise (actually, that's where we'd need some community patch writers). That's what I discussed with Reines.


fluxbb.de | develoPHP

"As code is more often read than written it's really important to write clean code."

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#5 2009-10-24 01:49:11

Mpok
Member
From: France
Registered: 2008-05-12
Posts: 389

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

Ok, you convinced me Smartys...

..except on one point : "1. Slow down the development process for 1.4 even more.".
It shouldn't (or just a few days), as i was proposing a contribution : no fluxbb devs's time was involved (maybe only to 'verify' our code, just a few days).

Your arguments are good (exept this one), and i understand them.
But i have to say that ur 'compatibility sticking' way, as good it is, can also be a drawback. And as u want to manage an upgrade from 1.3, how will u do this ? (about panel admin which WERE translated in 1.3..).

As Plazzmex stated above, "how long will we wait ?"

And what about lie2815's suggest : a second version which do breaks compatibility, but have the admin panel (properly) translated ?

In fact, the goal for us (non-english communities) is to have a software which is EASY to update. And adding langage files for admin panel IS a way to reach that goal, because otherwise we will modify the files itselves, and then make the update process more difficult..

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#6 2009-10-24 01:55:24

Smartys
Former Developer
Registered: 2008-04-27
Posts: 3,139
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

..except on one point : "1. Slow down the development process for 1.4 even more.".
It shouldn't (or just a few days), as i was proposing a contribution : no fluxbb devs's time was involved (maybe only to 'verify' our code, just a few days).

Fair enough, assuming the changes were of sufficient quality to be merged without issue. smile

But i have to say that ur 'compatibility sticking' way, as good it is, can also be a drawback.

You can't have it both ways. Backward compatibility was the goal of 1.4, whereas 2.0 has a different goal.

And as u want to manage an upgrade from 1.3, how will u do this ? (about panel admin which WERE translated in 1.3..).

It will be a "downgrade" from that perspective. But that's why 1.3 was never officially released by FluxBB: it became a sort of transition version. You can upgrade from 1.2 or 1.3 though.

As Plazzmex stated above, "how long will we wait ?"

However long it takes to develop and launch 2.0. You can't develop good software from scratch in a matter of days. wink

And what about lie2815's suggest : a second version which do breaks compatibility, but have the admin panel (properly) translated ?

AKA: a modification? tongue
Seriously though, there's no reason to have separate official versions of 1.4 depending on the level of backward compatibility you want. That way leads only to madness.

In fact, the goal for us (non-english communities) is to have a software which is EASY to update. And adding langage files for admin panel IS a way to reach that goal, because otherwise we will modify the files itselves, and then make the update process more difficult..

Choosing to apply a modification is a decision that forum administrators have to make for themselves. There are tradeoffs involved, as there always have been.

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#7 2009-10-24 03:15:53

Plazzmex
Member
Registered: 2008-07-24
Posts: 85

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

I was just reading. but i can't get over it:

Smartys wrote:

However long it takes to develop and launch 2.0. You can't develop good software from scratch in a matter of days. wink

Do you develop it from scratch ?  Why ? You said previously that 2.0 will be the next 1.3 just with rewritten extensions system, and now you say it will be written from scratch?
on the one hand it is very good. Because I believe that you guys will make it even faster and even more optimized !
but on the other hand - it can take months if no years to finish it if you start from nothing!

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#8 2009-10-24 03:38:51

Smartys
Former Developer
Registered: 2008-04-27
Posts: 3,139
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

Do you develop it from scratch ?  Why ? You said previously that 2.0 will be the next 1.3 just with rewritten extensions system, and now you say it will be written from scratch?

I don't recall ever saying anything like that. I can't find a reference to another develop saying it either, although I'll admit I haven't looked too hard.

Connor said:

This is the next major version of FluxBB and what we are most excited about, it will be similar to 1.3 but will include a way of creating per-style templates, isolation of markup and code, as well as other features we have yet to discuss in detail. We want the development of this to go better than 1.3 did, and as such we are first going to plan exactly what we want from 2.0, and we will then develop it. There are currently no definite decisions for 2.0 and we will be discussing them. We will make further announcements as and when decisions are made.

http://fluxbb.org/forums/post/19902/#p19902

My original idea for 2.0, which is sitting in the dev forum, explicitly mentions rewriting the code from scratch. PunBB 1.2 was a very good codebase, but certain new features (the extension system among them) necessitate a new way of thinking that is facilitated by starting from scratch. Now, the devs can go in whatever direction they want, but my understanding at this point is that 2.0 is going to be a complete rewrite of the codebase (as the version dictates: a 2.0 revision should indicate the code was significantly rewritten).

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#9 2009-10-25 20:01:47

Mpok
Member
From: France
Registered: 2008-05-12
Posts: 389

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

Smartys wrote:

..except on one point : "1. Slow down the development process for 1.4 even more.".
It shouldn't (or just a few days), as i was proposing a contribution : no fluxbb devs's time was involved (maybe only to 'verify' our code, just a few days).

Fair enough, assuming the changes were of sufficient quality to be merged without issue. smile

Obviously. Even if i wouldn't have done the job all-by-myself, i would have checked it properly before proposing (and replacing all messages with their $lang_admin_www.php equivalent is not a big issue, the "quality" of it is straight obvious).

Smartys wrote:

And as u want to manage an upgrade from 1.3, how will u do this ? (about panel admin which WERE translated in 1.3..).

It will be a "downgrade" from that perspective. But that's why 1.3 was never officially released by FluxBB: it became a sort of transition version. You can upgrade from 1.2 or 1.3 though.

Ok. U can also understand how this particular feature is disappointing for us... The code exists in 1.3, all u have to do is to make the exact same diffs (for utf-8 support) that u have to make on 1.2 (maybe a little more, didn't check precisely, but it's not a big issue). As u say, it's a downgrade, and THAT'S a pitty...

Smartys wrote:

As Plazzmex stated above, "how long will we wait ?"

However long it takes to develop and launch 2.0. You can't develop good software from scratch in a matter of days. wink

Very agreed. @Plazzmex (answer to next message) : dev from scratch for 2.0 is NECESSARY, seeing the goals of that version. Even if some code (or structure of the bdd) could be re-used, it's better to "think it's from scratch", even if it's not really the case.

Smartys wrote:

AKA: a modification? tongue
Seriously though, there's no reason to have separate official versions of 1.4 depending on the level of backward compatibility you want. That way leads only to madness.

Well... Yep, we lead to a "mod"... And every "non-english" communities have to make their own mod for that issue (admin panel)... Then, i suggest u to reserve a special section on ur future "Mods Hosting Part", as these mods have to be the first applied to the forums...
Frankly Smartys, i don't see the advantage of having 10 mods (one for each language) versus ONE general mod (associated language files). Want me to assure i will keep that "panel_admin_mod" up-to-date ? And if i do, will u change ur point of view ?
(ok for the "compatibility" argue on "official" version, then we are on "mods"...)

Other important Q : will we have to "work for ourselves" or "work for everyone" ? Mean, will we translate "inline" (which is MUCH easier, as we have 1.2 translation) and propose a "french only mod" ? OR will we "localize" and propose a general mod for every community ? How the 2 ones will be treated by FluxBB.org ?
As u want to host "official and verified" mods, the question is important.

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#10 2009-10-25 20:14:06

Franz
Lead developer
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-05-13
Posts: 6,744
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

Mpok wrote:

Other important Q : will we have to "work for ourselves" or "work for everyone" ? Mean, will we translate "inline" (which is MUCH easier, as we have 1.2 translation) and propose a "french only mod" ? OR will we "localize" and propose a general mod for every community ? How the 2 ones will be treated by FluxBB.org ?
As u want to host "official and verified" mods, the question is important.

Every modification that has good quality can be hosted here. Obviously it would be cool if you could create a mod "for everyone", as you called it.


fluxbb.de | develoPHP

"As code is more often read than written it's really important to write clean code."

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#11 2009-10-26 16:15:16

Paul
Developer
From: Wales, UK
Registered: 2008-04-27
Posts: 1,653

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

I had a need to add language file support for my own use. For anybody who might be interested here are my modified admin files and related language files. It is probably a bit rough and ready but might be of use to somebody. The files were prepared for beta 2 and updated to r1163.

http://formpattern.com/files/fluxadmin.zip


The only thing worse than finding a bug is knowing I created it in the first place.

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#12 2009-10-26 16:28:58

Mpok
Member
From: France
Registered: 2008-05-12
Posts: 389

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

Great !!!
Thanks Paul. big_smile

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#13 2009-10-26 17:18:55

Plazzmex
Member
Registered: 2008-07-24
Posts: 85

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

Paul,
Wow.. thats fantastic ! thanks very much !

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#14 2010-01-08 20:29:27

jojaba
Member
From: Obersoultzbach, Elsaß, France
Registered: 2009-12-04
Posts: 473
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

Paul wrote:

I had a need to add language file support for my own use. For anybody who might be interested here are my modified admin files and related language files. It is probably a bit rough and ready but might be of use to somebody. The files were prepared for beta 2 and updated to r1163.
http://formpattern.com/files/fluxadmin.zip

Are this files also right for the new 1.4RC1 version of FluxBB ?

Last edited by jojaba (2010-01-08 20:34:29)


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#15 2010-01-08 20:47:29

Reines
Administrator
From: Scotland
Registered: 2008-05-11
Posts: 3,197
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

They should do, there have only been a couple of very minor edits to the admin files since r1163 [see trac, I'm not sure how to tell trac to only look at admin_*.php].

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#16 2010-01-09 12:30:43

jojaba
Member
From: Obersoultzbach, Elsaß, France
Registered: 2009-12-04
Posts: 473
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

Reines wrote:

They should do, there have only been a couple of very minor edits to the admin files since r1163 [see trac, I'm not sure how to tell trac to only look at admin_*.php].

Thanks, I made the update (only the admin file, not the lang files). Only removed some spaces and replaced some "trim" by "pun_trim".
Here's where you can find it : Paul fluxadmin files updated for 1.4-RC1

Last edited by jojaba (2010-01-12 20:02:33)


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#17 2010-01-09 20:50:27

jojaba
Member
From: Obersoultzbach, Elsaß, France
Registered: 2009-12-04
Posts: 473
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

I tested these files on my local installation. I only found one typo in the language file "admin_categories.php" on line 25 :
"'Edit cateogories head" should be "Edit categories head" wink
Seems to work as usual.
You did a really great Job Paul ! Congratulation smile

I hope this localisation will be soon included in FluxBB tongue
I began to translate the admin language files in French. Should be finished tomorrow...

Last edited by jojaba (2010-01-09 20:51:10)


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#18 2010-01-09 20:59:51

adaur
Developer
From: France
Registered: 2010-01-07
Posts: 843
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

jojaba wrote:

I hope this localisation will be soon included in FluxBB tongue
I began to translate the admin language files in French. Should be finished tomorrow...

If you need any help, let me know wink


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Based on FluxBB, written in PHP, using Slim Framework for a proper OOP-MVC architecture.

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#19 2010-01-10 00:45:06

Paul
Developer
From: Wales, UK
Registered: 2008-04-27
Posts: 1,653

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

Thanks for the update, saved me some work big_smile


The only thing worse than finding a bug is knowing I created it in the first place.

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#20 2010-01-10 10:35:59

jojaba
Member
From: Obersoultzbach, Elsaß, France
Registered: 2009-12-04
Posts: 473
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

adaur wrote:

If you need any help, let me know wink

As I said, I tested the updated files on my local installation and did'nt find any problems, but that won't be enough. Other users should test this localisation...
So, I give you a link to the fully updated files (without French translation for the moment) below for testing if you don't mind wink ! Please read the readme.txt file for further informations about installation (sorry for my poor english, but I hope you can understand what I wrote in it).

Localisation of admin files for FluxBB 1.4-RC1

Last edited by jojaba (2010-01-12 20:03:01)


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#21 2010-01-11 21:39:04

cyberman
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2010-01-11
Posts: 297
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

Looks great - will check it.

Will this be a part of 1.4 or it's too late for it (code freeze)?

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#22 2010-01-11 21:50:43

Franz
Lead developer
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-05-13
Posts: 6,744
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

Smartys wrote:

I'm afraid you're wrong: backwards compatibility is not an excuse wink

90% of the mods (and even 99% if u stick on the more popular ones) DON'T TOUCH the admin files.

There are quite a few mods that do. I just looked at the top 10 on PunRes and 1 of them (Reputation Mod) modifies admin_options.php. There are a lot of modifications that add one or two options to the admin_options.php page rather than create a separate plugin. You're also ignoring people that may have made custom modifications.

in any case, the mods HAVE TO BE modified, the change of UTF-8 support is far enough to need it.

Untrue. For most modifications, UTF-8 by itself will not necessitate any changes. Some modifications may need to make new releases to improve compatibility with certain multibyte charsets, but that's the extent of it.

In contrast, rewriting the admin files to allow for internationalization will:
1. Slow down the development process for 1.4 even more.
2. Cause anyone upgrading to have to replace their entire set of admin files, overwriting any modifications (this is the far more onerous burden).
3. Cause all existing modifications that alter the admin section to have to be rewritten

I agree that internationalization is important and that 2.0 should be able to be fully internationalized, but 1.4 should maintain backwards compatibility as it was intended to.

I guess that explains it smile It's rather a problem of backwards compatibility (although big features and changes like that shouldn't be done after the release of RC either). I guess, people who want to use this, can just download this package. No real extra time involved...

Last edited by Franz (2010-01-11 21:51:43)


fluxbb.de | develoPHP

"As code is more often read than written it's really important to write clean code."

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#23 2010-01-12 05:26:49

jojaba
Member
From: Obersoultzbach, Elsaß, France
Registered: 2009-12-04
Posts: 473
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

cyberman wrote:

Looks great - will check it.
Will this be a part of 1.4 or it's too late for it (code freeze)?

I found some non localised strings (the main menu for instance) while testing my french translation. Will published this evening a new package (I will open a new topic for this...). So wait and see wink.


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#24 2010-01-12 07:56:06

cyberman
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2010-01-11
Posts: 297
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

jojaba wrote:

So wait and see wink.

OK, I'll do it big_smile ...

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#25 2010-01-12 20:03:57

jojaba
Member
From: Obersoultzbach, Elsaß, France
Registered: 2009-12-04
Posts: 473
Website

Re: [Proposal] : Localized admin

cyberman wrote:
jojaba wrote:

So wait and see wink.

OK, I'll do it big_smile ...

Here we are again smile !

Go here wink


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