Forums

Unfortunately no one can be told what FluxBB is - you have to see it for yourself.

You are not logged in.

#51 2010-07-27 12:48:19

Gary
Moderator
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2009-09-07
Posts: 232

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

Franz wrote:

May I point you to our wonderful (uncompleted hmm) unfeatures page!?

Fantastic, I will take a look through that. Sorry I didn't notice it beforehand.

Franz wrote:

We sure need active developers - especially in case we decide to go for a rewrite. I suggest you drop Reines an email.

I'm not an experienced developer as such, but I'm sure it won't be only that that you guys are looking for. I will send Reines an email as soon as I've posted this post. Thanks for the suggestion.

It seems to me that FluxBB is all about being minimalist, simple and extremely user-friendly, which it already is and that is fantastic. Maybe some slight adjustments to the current software would be perfect to make all FluxBB users happy, and then begin with a complete rewrite? I understand that lots of things are to be thought about at the moment which is the main purpose of opening this topic; so far we are getting towards what the aim of this whole process is about. Coming up with ideas and suggesting different answers to different problems and working together to make finalised, well thought out decisions. Organisation is a must especially in such important matters as these. What the FluxBB developers are doing is bringing their community and user base together to make a better and more powerful FluxBB. Even if you think an idea is stupid, the developers and I'm sure lots of other people might not.

Don't flood your mind with ideas cause it will all be lost; post them and we can all come together to make this new step work properly whether it's going to be an incremental update or a major update. wink

Offline

#52 2010-07-27 15:50:20

kg
Member
Registered: 2010-07-15
Posts: 35

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

A total rewrite? Sounds like second-system syndrome. I've seen the code base (and written my own mods), there are plenty of opportunities to clean up and restructure the existing code-base. The arguments used under 'disadvantages' for incremental rewriting seem weak. Why not just start refactoring?
The only hard argument seems to be 'frequent updates mean frequent breakage to mods'. This brings me to another point.

In my opinion this whole discussion is meaningless without a timeline. Take the following two scenarios:
- 2 years of development on a 2.0 version
- 6 x 6 months of development on 1.5 through 2.0.

I would certainly favor the second option. 6 months between updates isn't that bad for mod developers. Especially if the fluxbb developers make the extension system a priority and incorporate it into the first versions!
Incremental updates also allow the community to give more feedback during the development, this can help steer the development efforts.

Offline

#53 2010-07-27 17:30:54

Hemen
Member
Registered: 2008-05-14
Posts: 110

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

I would say you should make 1.5, and 1.6 + 2.0

2.0 should be a other version, nothing like punbb, should be big. 
And fluxbb should not be like punbb i think making 1.5. and 1.6 and a total rewrite a same time.  I think the problem of punbb for the years of losing members is because the versions took so much time, like phpbb can have a version two years, then i 6 months they could make the 3.0.

If you guys want to compet with phpbb, and smf like punbb one time did, you must make the version good, but at the same time make it done fast, like you making the version done in 3 years, that will lose much member, and only the loyal fluxbb users (like me) will stick with fluxbb.

But if i have to choose between for 1.5, and 1.6 vs rewrite

I would say rewrite. Make two versions of rewrite. One that is not much feautress like punbb and one big with much feautress for the ones that want that, because that way fluxbb will have way more users. And more popular, i know that's hard work, but to achieve something big in this world, you have to hard work. So i will say make two versions of rewrite big_smile

And one other thing fluxbb should recrute more Devlopers, that would be better for fluxbb.

Last edited by Hemen (2010-07-27 17:31:35)


RIP 2008-2008

Reborn in 2010

Offline

#54 2010-07-28 17:10:37

ThePCKid
Member
Registered: 2010-07-26
Posts: 7

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

I want a bit of each of the ideas.
How about a new part is rewritten when a new release is complete?
That way FluxBB can get clean without being outdated wink
(Let's start this mix with 1.4.2 tongue)

Offline

#55 2010-07-28 17:56:54

WebKing
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2010-07-28
Posts: 1
Website

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

Template engine - it sounds great. I'm for rewrite. Code will be faster and cleaner.

Offline

#56 2010-07-28 18:58:47

Mpok
Member
From: France
Registered: 2008-05-12
Posts: 389

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

@devs :
Maybe you could clarify your plans for the future, it would help users to form an opinion.
How extensions would be implemented?
Do you plan to fully separate php code from html one?

That's REALLY count for a wise answer..

Offline

#57 2010-07-28 20:22:22

kg
Member
Registered: 2010-07-15
Posts: 35

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

The developers can separate code from html without a complete rewrite. The same applies to a template engine; they can move to a template engine without a complete rewrite. Have a look at the code, it can be done with refactoring.

It doesn't matter whether they do a complete rewrite or move forward while doing heavy refactoring: the end result can be the same. In both cases you are rewriting code to improve structure and performance. Only the process is different.

But hey, I am a software engineer myself. I understand that for the developers it can be more fun to start from scratch, to design their own system. And of course I'd rather have them do that then quit altogether.

However I'd really appreciate it if the developers would publish some kind of planning/roadmap.

Last edited by kg (2010-07-28 20:23:01)

Offline

#58 2010-07-28 21:47:38

Gary
Moderator
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2009-09-07
Posts: 232

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

kg wrote:

However I'd really appreciate it if the developers would publish some kind of planning/roadmap.

I'm sure they'll post one once discussion in this forum has progressed and once they have made a proper decision on which update to go for. wink

Offline

#59 2010-07-28 22:05:34

Franz
Lead developer
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-05-13
Posts: 6,744
Website

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

A template system mainly means separating front-end code (HTML etc.) from back-end code (PHP). Nontheless, PHP is a templating engine, so don't expect anything like Smarty etc. (which adds too much overhead anyway).

Also: we posted this thread because we're not sure about the future roadmap and we wanted the community's input, not because we have a clear plan, want to hear what you guys want and then tell you how we're going to do it. So asking for a roadmap in this thread seems fairly strange tongue

In case you guys were asking about what features / ideas we thought of - now that can be done...


fluxbb.de | develoPHP

"As code is more often read than written it's really important to write clean code."

Offline

#60 2010-07-29 08:31:17

kg
Member
Registered: 2010-07-15
Posts: 35

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

Franz wrote:

A template system mainly means separating front-end code (HTML etc.) from back-end code (PHP). Nontheless, PHP is a templating engine, so don't expect anything like Smarty etc. (which adds too much overhead anyway).

I think it would be an excellent decision to stick to PHP for templating.

Franz wrote:

Also: we posted this thread because we're not sure about the future roadmap and we wanted the community's input, not because we have a clear plan, want to hear what you guys want and then tell you how we're going to do it. So asking for a roadmap in this thread seems fairly strange tongue

It's not so strange, I think:) I understand the developers are unsure about the roadmap at this point. However the opening post poses two alternatives. There is no reason the developers couldn't make two (very rough!) roadmaps for these alternatives. Maybe roadmap isn't the correct term, maybe it is more of a very rough planning.

The idea is to give everybody an idea what to expect with regards to release times. Will a complete rewrite take 1 year? Will it take 2 years? Or 3 years even? And how much time will there be between releases if there is not a complete rewrite?

Think about it: the opening post gives a list of (semi-)technical advantages/disadvantages, but there is no information about 'cost' (time-to-release, in this case). I don't think the community can help you make this decision without this information. I've seen multiple people express this exact concern in this thread!

Last edited by kg (2010-07-29 08:31:58)

Offline

#61 2010-07-29 16:27:40

Franz
Lead developer
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-05-13
Posts: 6,744
Website

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

kg wrote:

There is no reason the developers couldn't make two (very rough!) roadmaps for these alternatives. Maybe roadmap isn't the correct term, maybe it is more of a very rough planning.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

Funny you would say that: we have started to talk exactly about that a few days ago ("back-stage"), so expect some news about that soon.

Last edited by Franz (2010-07-29 16:27:59)


fluxbb.de | develoPHP

"As code is more often read than written it's really important to write clean code."

Offline

#62 2010-07-30 03:06:04

Gary
Moderator
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2009-09-07
Posts: 232

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

Sounds great. Can't wait to see what you guys have come up with Franz.

Offline

#63 2010-07-30 09:52:25

kg
Member
Registered: 2010-07-15
Posts: 35

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

Yes, that does sound good!

Offline

#64 2010-08-01 06:21:04

Gary
Moderator
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2009-09-07
Posts: 232

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

Looks like you guys are walking the right path. big_smile

Offline

#65 2010-08-06 09:35:28

Peeter
Member
Registered: 2010-04-26
Posts: 27

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

kg wrote:

The developers can separate code from html without a complete rewrite. The same applies to a template engine; they can move to a template engine without a complete rewrite. Have a look at the code, it can be done with refactoring.

It doesn't matter whether they do a complete rewrite or move forward while doing heavy refactoring: the end result can be the same. In both cases you are rewriting code to improve structure and performance. Only the process is different.

But hey, I am a software engineer myself. I understand that for the developers it can be more fun to start from scratch, to design their own system. And of course I'd rather have them do that then quit altogether.

However I'd really appreciate it if the developers would publish some kind of planning/roadmap.

Mod rewriting is actually a pain in the ass, and is the reason why I used punbb 1.2 for such a long time (heavily  modified forums).

If someone has to use a diff. tool then chances are they'll rather not update then accidentally break modifications they've added / written.

Offline

#66 2010-08-06 10:03:43

kg
Member
Registered: 2010-07-15
Posts: 35

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

Peeter wrote:

Mod rewriting is actually a pain in the ass, and is the reason why I used punbb 1.2 for such a long time (heavily  modified forums).

If someone has to use a diff. tool then chances are they'll rather not update then accidentally break modifications they've added / written.

Perhaps, I guess it depends on the mod and how it was written. However I'm not sure it's relevant to this discussion.
There will be significant structural changes to the codebase, whichever approach the developers choose. As a consequence, mods will have to be changed to keep up. In one approach (incremental) mods may have to be updated more frequently (how frequent/often is still unclear), but updates will be smaller. On the other approach (full rewrite) the change will be larger, but only occur once.

Last edited by kg (2010-08-06 10:05:13)

Offline

#67 2010-08-06 13:28:58

Peeter
Member
Registered: 2010-04-26
Posts: 27

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

Rewriting mods once and being able to update the core each time an update comes along is worth more then slowly modifying modifications, at least imo.

Offline

#68 2010-08-08 08:33:32

Gary
Moderator
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2009-09-07
Posts: 232

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

I agree also Peeter.

Offline

#69 2010-08-11 13:54:18

davidlougheed
Member
Registered: 2010-04-16
Posts: 38

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

I definitely think "rewrite" is the way to go. I've taken a look at the codebase, and it seems very unorganized and messy in some places, as well as inefficient.

If you guys are looking for more developers, I'd like to "try out". I'm currently writing my own BB software to prove my worthiness tongue

Offline

#70 2010-08-11 14:01:48

Franz
Lead developer
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-05-13
Posts: 6,744
Website

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

davidlougheed wrote:

If you guys are looking for more developers, I'd like to "try out". I'm currently writing my own BB software to prove my worthiness tongue

Help is always welcome.

Writing patches for outstanding tickets is definitely the more efficient way, though wink

Last edited by Franz (2010-08-23 11:31:59)


fluxbb.de | develoPHP

"As code is more often read than written it's really important to write clean code."

Offline

#71 2010-08-11 14:07:29

Gary
Moderator
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2009-09-07
Posts: 232

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

Ha ha, that's exactly what I thought when I read your davidlougheed's post. It'd be better to improve FluxBB and prove your worthiness that way rather then writing up your very own forum software.

I'm sure FluxBB can do with some of your expertise if you have it to offer of course.

Offline

#72 2010-08-11 14:41:26

davidlougheed
Member
Registered: 2010-04-16
Posts: 38

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

I was sorta joking, I'm writing it to learn anyway, I just said that for fun. I'll try to do patches, but I'm not quite sure how that works... :S

EDIT: Oh, I understand now!

Last edited by davidlougheed (2010-08-11 14:49:38)

Offline

#73 2010-08-12 15:04:14

Gary
Moderator
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2009-09-07
Posts: 232

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

Ha ha, not a problem then. Nothing wrong with practicing I'm sure. Practice makes perfect.

Offline

#74 2010-08-25 12:50:49

cyberman
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2010-01-11
Posts: 297
Website

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

If you decide to rewrite FluxBB totally it would be nice to use translation base from version 1.4 - it's very hard (and really time expensive) for translators to create a complete new translation (once again - have it done for 1.4).

At this point a smart version moving (1.5,1.6,...) would be better hmm.

Another point is the broken backward compatibility - there are hundreds of useful (over years grown) mods for fluxbb, which based on punbb. If you change the code base completely you have ... nothing. FluxBB is a very slim forum with not so much (unused) features like other BB. But so extensions are really important for it.

So I think the main question is how much time the dev team need to release a completely new version. IMHO it's better to have small steps with real progress (templating, extensions hooks, ...) before we have only a mythic dream of a impressive software that will (maybe) coming in the future.

Just my 2 cents.

Offline

#75 2010-08-25 22:57:18

Jérémie
Member
From: France
Registered: 2008-04-30
Posts: 629
Website

Re: FluxBB direction - incremental vs major

cyberman wrote:

If you decide to rewrite FluxBB totally it would be nice to use translation base from version 1.4 - it's very hard (and really time expensive) for translators to create a complete new translation (once again - have it done for 1.4).

I disagree at the "very hard and really time expensive" label. It's not trivial, agreed, but doing it right from scratch alone take me maybe half a day. Add another half day for re-reading it, implementing public comments and such, that's a day's work top.

From the incremental vs major point of view, localization shouldn't impede a total rewrite.

By the way, as a translator, I prefer less maintenance and more rewrite. Since the basic tools and management suggested months back weren't implemented (as usual here), it takes more work and time to maintain a current translation up to date than to rewrite it fully once a year.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB