PunBB comment on FluxBB announcement

Felix · 2008-05-17 14:19:46

Through the centralized extension releases on the official flux page (perhaps included with some certs for proper extensions? Like FluxTested )
I'm pretty sure it will work out and until now the support in here is excellent. Prolly it will change after the board installations are raising into the 4 digit area, but until that point there are also enough people in here who got a clue how fluxbb is working (and I think there already are some of them).

And one thing you have to mention is: professional support and service always comes with responsibility for possible damage caused by anything. And this responsibility can't be given by any Open Source Software without some service provider. So I think it is ok that way.

Jérémie · 2008-05-17 14:44:04

chris wrote:

The only way to prevent this if if the Pun owners do 0 development on the core and Pun is continually updated by Flux releases, which I can't see happening long term.

I don't see why. Flux's code is GPL and public.

And more, for now, I think it's exactly their plans. Why invest in developers, to write something other people are going to do for free? Of course, while they may have entered a competition with Flux and, if done right, won, this means PunBB is going to die. There's no reason to keep up with it under those circumstances.

Better for us, it means more users, more user base, a bigger community.

Jérémie · 2008-05-17 14:48:05

Felix wrote:

And one thing you have to mention is: professional support and service always comes with responsibility for possible damage caused by anything. And this responsibility can't be given by any Open Source Software without some service provider. So I think it is ok that way.

I've yet to see any commercial provider taking responsibility. You really think that if I loose two days work, with a net worth of 5K€, I can get a refund from Microsoft, Oracle, Adobe, or even nVidia?

Don't think so.

I think PunBB's owner move was just, from the begining, a mistake. It may have been a very good idea, but it was handled poorly (to say the least) starting with the attempt at hiding it (and it's also Rickard's fault on this one).

Connor · 2008-05-17 14:52:34

Felix wrote:

Through the centralized extension releases on the official flux page (perhaps included with some certs for proper extensions? Like FluxTested )

All extensions will be tested before we host them.

Felix · 2008-05-17 15:01:54

Microsoft doesn't sell any service within their software.
But for some money you can buy the support. Technical Support, Assistance Support, even programming support within Microsoft technologies.

And a websoftware without a real warranty is just crap.
If I pay money for software, I want it to work. And if it doesn't or I'll get bugs in it (or even lose all CC data of my customers) I'll have a serious talk with the developers.

chris · 2008-05-17 15:55:47

@Jérémie: My quote is misleading, the "this" I was referring to is Pun & Flux codebases becoming different. Which will happen unless Pun just copies Flux, which I don't think they will do long term. The tone of the Flux developers (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that they aren't keen on taking development direction from Pun's owners, or core code written by their developers.

For now Pun's plan is to clearly copy Flux, wasn't that what I said? That's what I was trying to say. But I only think it's their short-term plan. If their long term strategy is to just mooch the code off of Flux then, as hcgtv said in the Pun forum:

hcgtv wrote:

If your plan is to rely on the FluxBB core and create extensions, then PunBB just became extinct. here

The reason I don't see them doing that long term is because if they do then their money was wasted. Why would they buy the Pun "brand" just to kill it? If they just wanted to be an extensions factory they could have built extensions for Pun without buying it in the first place, saving themselves money and everyone else a lot of stress.

My point being: there has been a lot of polite talk from Anatoly, but the actions of "the owners" has contradicted that talk from the outset. I think that their talk will begin to match those actions once 1.3 is out and they don't need the Flux developers or community anymore. All this talk of "sharing" and "interoperability" will fade and they will begin to up sell Pun as better then Flux using their extensions as the cornerstone of that argument. From the tone of his posts it's almost as if Anatoly views Pun as Red Hat and Flux as Fedora, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the type of marketing angle they take. At least that's my completely unqualified opinion on the matter.

@Felix: At the risk of sounding like I'm defending them...Microsoft does offer a lot of services with their software, and not all of them cost you money to use. All software comes with bugs, regardless of how well it's tested, and no software comes with a warranty whether you pay for the license to use it or not. When you "buy" commercial software you're paying for the privilege to use it, not for a guarantee that it will work. Development is not the same as Support and typically your license fee is only covering Development costs.

Last edited by chris (2008-05-17 16:01:47)

Felix · 2008-05-17 16:27:41

Well, perhaps I should have said "option for warranty".

And I know that MS is offering a lot (just think of MSDN or the Knowledge base) and also some phone support, yes.
And that the perfect software will be never born is also obvious to me. But when I pay for service (compare xt:commerce f.e.) and a bug is found, I expect the programmers to fix it asap.
And that is something I would expect. In an project like FluxBB I hope it is fixed asap, but I would never persist on it...

Jérémie · 2008-05-17 16:31:43

And no general public software (and something like PunBB falls into that category here) comes a warranty.

A warranty is money. A serious talk to the developer is a joke, they don't care. The only thing that matter is money: what constitute a downtime? What constitute a data loss? How much am I getting paid for those?

Mpok · 2008-05-17 21:31:14

If they (the owners of Punbb) just want to develop extensions and maintain the core just identical as Fluxbb (as they said), WHY not just stop Punbb officially and concentrate on these extensions (for FluxBB) ?
Maintaining the two projects along have a sense ONLY if the core is different.
I agree with hcgtv : PunBB is dead, point. I don't see why Anatoly try to save the name "PunBB" as he admits there will be no difference between Punbb and FluxBB.
(beside, i'm pretty sure that extensions made by Anatoly's team would be more successful if named "extension for FluxBB" than "extension for PunBB").

MattF · 2008-05-17 21:50:43

Mpok wrote:

I don't see why Anatoly try to save the name "PunBB" as he admits there will be no difference between Punbb and FluxBB.

PunBB is a recognised name.

Last edited by MattF (2008-05-17 21:51:03)

Meow · 2008-05-18 03:16:59

It's time to make PunBB RIP.

Das Tier · 2008-05-18 07:32:14

Meow wrote:

It's time to make PunBB RIP.

yes and we must now say Welcome to fluxbb

MattF · 2008-05-18 10:00:58

Meow wrote:

It's time to make PunBB RIP.

Why?

Meow · 2008-05-18 10:26:42

Do you hope that FluxBB and PunBB are lose-lose?

MattF · 2008-05-18 10:35:40

Meow wrote:

Do you hope that FluxBB and PunBB are lose-lose?

I am sure they can quite happily co-exist. They will each have their uses.

Paul · 2008-05-18 11:05:07

MattF wrote:

I am sure they can quite happily co-exist. They will each have their uses.

I hope so, when you think of the time and effort everybody, especially Rickard, put into PunBB I would hope it thrives. The important thing is the projects become distinct sooner rather than later.

Coordinator · 2008-05-18 11:05:59

Meow wrote:

PunBB will become like Netscape Navigator, and FluxBB will become like Mozilla Firefox. Won't they?

IMHO, it is good analogy.

damaxxed · 2008-05-18 12:35:54

It quite took some while until I realized that all FluxBB devs have changed their avatar on the punbb forum to forks.. Really funny

SuperMAG · 2008-05-18 12:44:41

damaxxed wrote:

It quite took some while until I realized that all FluxBB devs have changed their avatar on the punbb forum to forks.. Really funny

oh that... i noticed it some time ago too ... well its usefull too ... lol

Dr.Jeckyl · 2008-05-19 05:13:54

damaxxed wrote:

It quite took some while until I realized that all FluxBB devs have changed their avatar on the punbb forum to forks.. Really funny

That is F***ing AWESOME!

Anatoly · 2008-05-19 07:39:53

Mpok wrote:

If they (the owners of Punbb) just want to develop extensions and maintain the core just identical as Fluxbb (as they said)

I'd like to point again: my words are not the words of PunBB owners. I'm just a developer telling my personal vision "from here" and I'm trying to make the situation as clear as possible (as I understand in now and as far as I'm allowed to). No one should build long term plans and conclusion based on my words. Because only PunBB owners see all the picture and direct their resources here or there. There are official announcements they take responsibility for: 1, 2. That's all.

My personal nature is to be constructive: I'm finding and pointing out the ways Flux and Pun "can quite happily co-exist". That is why I'm here. Nothing more.

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