A search box on the header

Lirodon · 2009-11-28 21:10:58

Why can't we have one of those? That right side of the user bar needs some love, a search box would look great

Reines · 2009-11-28 22:00:08

Is there much need for it to be there as well as in the search page? FluxBB is about being minimal rather than trying to add everything possible.

Lirodon · 2009-11-29 04:00:42

Reines wrote:

Is there much need for it to be there as well as in the search page? FluxBB is about being minimal rather than trying to add everything possible.

Well, while the search page is intended as more of an "advanced" search, I don't see how adding just a small search box to the right hand side would make it less minimalistic.

Smartys · 2009-11-29 04:49:13

Well, let me phrase the question another way: why do you think the right side of the user bar needs to be utilized in that way?

Edit:
My point is that there are two possible ways to look at new features:
- "Well, I can't think of a good reason not to include feature X: we should include it"
- "These are reasons why feature X should be included: we should include it"

FluxBB tries to avoid the first approach because if you use it, you end up with a bunch of extra features just because you couldn't come up with a good reason not to include them.

So, if you want to suggest adding a search box to the right side of the user bar, I would be sure to mention:
- Why you feel the right side of the user bar is underutilized
- Why you feel a search box (as opposed to any other feature) is the right object to utilize that space
- If there are any possible negative side effects (ie: what happens for people who have search disabled?)

Last edited by Smartys (2009-11-29 04:58:10)

Gil · 2009-11-29 08:36:55

Smartys wrote:

Well, let me phrase the question another way: why do you think the right side of the user bar needs to be utilized in that way?
Edit:
My point is that there are two possible ways to look at new features:
- "Well, I can't think of a good reason not to include feature X: we should include it"
- "These are reasons why feature X should be included: we should include it"
FluxBB tries to avoid the first approach because if you use it, you end up with a bunch of extra features just because you couldn't come up with a good reason not to include them.
So, if you want to suggest adding a search box to the right side of the user bar, I would be sure to mention:
- Why you feel the right side of the user bar is underutilized
- Why you feel a search box (as opposed to any other feature) is the right object to utilize that space
- If there are any possible negative side effects (ie: what happens for people who have search disabled?)

I agree with this vision; but if I think that such a function is not a base function, it should be very very convenient to be able to easily do it: not through a core modification or option, nor an extension, but using a "fluxBB API" (I do not want to say it is not feasible currently; maybe only documentation is needed). What I think is that to have such an API (and others) could be in the core. With this kind of service, it could be possible to add Lirodon request (adding in fluxBB header) or others ones (mine : adding such a box externally, in a personal portal).

Generally speaking, don't you think it could be a good idea to add a "services" or "external" interface php file to export fluxBB capabilities? (not only feeds).

Smartys · 2009-11-29 13:32:10

Gil: I don't think that word means what you think it means

Wikipedia wrote:

An application programming interface (API) is an interface that a software program implements in order to allow other software to interact with it, much in the same way that software might implement a user interface in order to allow humans to use it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicatio … _interface

The purpose of an API is to allow other software to view and modify FluxBB's data. Adding a search box (an entirely visual element) either within FluxBB or outside of its code is definitely not what an API is used for.

Lirodon · 2009-11-29 13:58:08

Okay, I got "good reasons" now. FluxBB seems to be a minimalistic and easily usable message board system. We put simplified versions of common features within easy reach and try not to keep things too complicated looking for the average user. Having search easily accessible from every page would improve the usability of FluxBB by offering another key and highly used function within easy reach. Note I'm using 1.3 as an example, but for those who don't understand, this is what I had in mind

FSX · 2009-11-29 15:10:24

I think this is a good idea. Maybe this could be optional (enable/disable it via the options page)?

Frank H · 2009-11-29 17:46:38

I think there is/was a mod for PunBB 1.2 to do just that. (IIRC a really simple mod to add aswell)
I understand why som people want it, but I'm pretty sure not all people need it.

Gil · 2009-11-29 22:54:45

Smartys wrote:

Gil: I don't think that word means what you think it means
Wikipedia wrote:
An application programming interface (API) is an interface that a software program implements in order to allow other software to interact with it, much in the same way that software might implement a user interface in order to allow humans to use it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicatio … _interface
The purpose of an API is to allow other software to view and modify FluxBB's data. Adding a search box (an entirely visual element) either within FluxBB or outside of its code is definitely not what an API is used for.

I just wanted to speak about the link between outside element (search box) and FluxBB. But ok, please, forgot my message: I thought I would like to have a possibility to link an external search box to fluxBB; but, but, but...

... I'd already done it (and it was very easy as it was enough to look at used url).
My apologies I promise, tomorrow I stop alcohol (and I'm going to sleep again).

Popov · 2009-12-04 06:26:56

A Google search box is a good alternative.

Pros:
- free
- easily customizable
- searches not only in the forum but in wiki, blog, website, ...

Cons:
- external code
- searches in the indexed pages only

GHOwner · 2009-12-08 17:19:28

Smartys wrote:

Well, let me phrase the question another way: why do you think the right side of the user bar needs to be utilized in that way?
Edit:
My point is that there are two possible ways to look at new features:
- "Well, I can't think of a good reason not to include feature X: we should include it"
- "These are reasons why feature X should be included: we should include it"
FluxBB tries to avoid the first approach because if you use it, you end up with a bunch of extra features just because you couldn't come up with a good reason not to include them.
So, if you want to suggest adding a search box to the right side of the user bar, I would be sure to mention:
- Why you feel the right side of the user bar is underutilized
- Why you feel a search box (as opposed to any other feature) is the right object to utilize that space
- If there are any possible negative side effects (ie: what happens for people who have search disabled?)

Seems like a good number of features bypassed the points you discussed. Namely, the description under the forum title ("Unfortunately no one can be told what FluxBB is - you have to see it for yourself.") and links for "New Post | Active topics | Unanswered topics" when they could just be another page. They don't need to be there, especially the description part since many replace it with an image, but are.

A text input box is not a huge push in "complexity", but shares the same reason as New posts, etc. That is, for convenience and exposure to the user. It's not a complex implementation, but rather just a simple quick search; where you type in keywords and hit enter (or submit button). For people that need more complex searches, the actual search page is there for that.

I just don't see how this suggestion is outrageous or supposedly less "simplistic" when it doesn't exactly require much more resources to be added, if any. I support this suggestion, and that's why.

Smartys · 2009-12-08 22:52:39

GHOwner: Very good post. As you correctly point out, there is a balance to be struck between usability and bloat.

To be clear though, nobody has been saying that the idea is bad. Rather, my post was meant to encourage discussion on a couple points raised by the idea:
- Is the right side of the user bar underutilized? (Personally, I'd say yes, although it depends on the style)
- If so, is a search box the right object to utilize the space?

---

That aside, my general feeling is that features like this, while not necessarily "bloat," do add to the complexity of the software in measurable ways. There are going to be some people who love the feature, some people who hate it and want to disable it, some people who want to replace it with something else, and some people who don't use search and for who the box will be useless. To appease all of those groups, you need to add more configuration options and build more complexity into the software. That's not an inherently negative thing: more flexibility is typically good. However, nobody wants to scroll through hundreds of options (and yes, that's hyperbole), even if doing so means their software will be configured EXACTLY how they want it. Thus, there are tradeoffs: which of the thousands of possible minimal features do you implement and which do you leave for modifications? That's not an easy question to answer but I think it's very relevant here.

Last edited by Smartys (2009-12-08 22:53:05)

Aled Owen · 2009-12-09 21:08:28

It potentially saves bandwidth because you don't have to load a separate page. It could be done like this (PunBB, but looks the same anyway) does it as it wouldn't really clash with the layout much.

Franz · 2009-12-09 21:10:38

Good example... but not for guests

Aled Owen · 2009-12-10 21:56:19

Oh woopsydaisy.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Aled-29/ … rchbar.png

qie · 2009-12-12 06:38:13

no need for that.

i disable user's search permission

GHOwner · 2009-12-18 14:16:48

Smartys wrote:

GHOwner: Very good post. As you correctly point out, there is a balance to be struck between usability and bloat.
To be clear though, nobody has been saying that the idea is bad. Rather, my post was meant to encourage discussion on a couple points raised by the idea:
- Is the right side of the user bar underutilized? (Personally, I'd say yes, although it depends on the style)
- If so, is a search box the right object to utilize the space?
---
That aside, my general feeling is that features like this, while not necessarily "bloat," do add to the complexity of the software in measurable ways. There are going to be some people who love the feature, some people who hate it and want to disable it, some people who want to replace it with something else, and some people who don't use search and for who the box will be useless. To appease all of those groups, you need to add more configuration options and build more complexity into the software. That's not an inherently negative thing: more flexibility is typically good. However, nobody wants to scroll through hundreds of options (and yes, that's hyperbole), even if doing so means their software will be configured EXACTLY how they want it. Thus, there are tradeoffs: which of the thousands of possible minimal features do you implement and which do you leave for modifications? That's not an easy question to answer but I think it's very relevant here.

That's the same for anything, really. If someone wants something different, they'll have to pay the price and edit it. Adding a search bar is not something that would make it bloated, and to think that someone which is useful in many situations can lead to future acceptance of many more features, is looking too far into it. Something as Lirodon as posted would be simple and fit the purpose of a quick search bar. (http://fluxbb.org/forums/post/26587/#p26587)

I understand your points and appreciate how FluxBB is light weight, only coming with necessities out of the box, but this addition is more of a benefit than a issue. I keep at mind simplicity and hopefully catering to the majority needs over the minority needs and if such is added, it can be easily removed through options or an easy template modification. So, what kind of benefits do I mean?

Less Bandwidth: Those who only with for a quick search without extra options can do so without loading a new page or adding more database weight
With the standards of any software on the market, as well as any user service, a search bar being out in the open is more a necessity these days

There's most likely more, but too busy to think of them at this time (hence my late response).

I guess you have a point either way that it's not going to be an overall used feature by both guests and normal users, but to make such an extension seems a bit pointless, yeah? I guess, regardless, it can just be added either way for those that need it.

Last edited by GHOwner (2009-12-18 14:18:13)

qie · 2009-12-18 17:11:06

it maybe useful for forum users but not good for the server. like share hosting..l as i said i always disable search for other members.

that cause cpu usage.

no need for developer do it as a default option. just edit the templates and the CSS , add it manually.

GHOwner · 2009-12-20 18:08:50

qie wrote:

it maybe useful for forum users but not good for the server. like share hosting..l as i said i always disable search for other members.
that cause cpu usage.
no need for developer do it as a default option. just edit the templates and the CSS , add it manually.

Then a disabled search feature would get rid of the box as well.

This would cause less strain on the server due to it not having to load all the options as it does on the search page, to those that just want a fast and general search (as in, they don't modify any of the search options, thus retrieving the extra options was pointless and a waste of resources.) Of course people can just edit the template to add it, I only am stating that it's a bit silly to make it a addon/extension type of thing, than a default feature when there is not an exact downfall with it. For anyone being worried this can lead to many unecessary edits, that's a bit too much paranoia...

Things like topic subscriptions could have been an extension, since not everyone tends to subscribe to a topic and thus the feature isn't a demanded thing. The thing is, FluxBB is light weight enough to warrant adding what is a general use and what isn't. Things like user-selectable avatar-sets, RSS poster, notices/announcements, style changer, calendar, etc would be examples of extension-required features, since it doesn't serve a general need or use. A search bar just adds easier access to a feature that always exists, AND doubles in reducing the amount of resources needed to users that only make simple, default-settings searches.

(edited for some typos, gotta be a little more careful )

Last edited by GHOwner (2009-12-20 20:07:46)

Paul · 2009-12-20 19:25:52

I suppose I would have to agree. Whenever I visit a forum with a quick search I use it and never bother visiting the detailed search page.

qie · 2009-12-21 05:52:02

maybe we can remove subscription.

Franz · 2009-12-21 09:01:25

Huh? What does that have to do with this topic and why?

Oldskool · 2009-12-21 10:33:08

This sounds like a find add-on. Quick search is always much easier then advanced search pages and if done right (like 1 search per member per X seconds) it shouldn't bring too much of a load to the server.

GHOwner · 2009-12-21 11:16:24

Oldskool wrote:

This sounds like a find add-on. Quick search is always much easier then advanced search pages and if done right (like 1 search per member per X seconds) it shouldn't bring too much of a load to the server.

Shouldn't be any, really. It's just a all-default search. Thus, it saves having to load up the full search page since it doesn't need to display options when it's a general search.

Forums

#1 2009-11-28 21:10:58

A search box on the header

#2 2009-11-28 22:00:08

Re: A search box on the header

#3 2009-11-29 04:00:42

Re: A search box on the header

#4 2009-11-29 04:49:13

Re: A search box on the header

#5 2009-11-29 08:36:55

Re: A search box on the header

#6 2009-11-29 13:32:10

Re: A search box on the header

#7 2009-11-29 13:58:08

Re: A search box on the header

#8 2009-11-29 15:10:24

Re: A search box on the header

#9 2009-11-29 17:46:38

Re: A search box on the header

#10 2009-11-29 22:54:45

Re: A search box on the header

#11 2009-12-04 06:26:56

Re: A search box on the header

#12 2009-12-08 17:19:28

Re: A search box on the header

#13 2009-12-08 22:52:39

Re: A search box on the header

#14 2009-12-09 21:08:28

Re: A search box on the header

#15 2009-12-09 21:10:38

Re: A search box on the header

#16 2009-12-10 21:56:19

Re: A search box on the header

#17 2009-12-12 06:38:13

Re: A search box on the header

#18 2009-12-18 14:16:48

Re: A search box on the header

#19 2009-12-18 17:11:06

Re: A search box on the header

#20 2009-12-20 18:08:50

Re: A search box on the header

#21 2009-12-20 19:25:52

Re: A search box on the header

#22 2009-12-21 05:52:02

Re: A search box on the header

#23 2009-12-21 09:01:25

Re: A search box on the header

#24 2009-12-21 10:33:08

Re: A search box on the header

#25 2009-12-21 11:16:24

Re: A search box on the header

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