New website preview - feedback

DavidONE · 2009-10-29 00:01:09

I just found http://www.jamierf.co.uk/2009/10/21/flu … -progress/ and would like to give some minor feedback:

1. where's the logo?!
2. 'Get FluxBB' - why not just 'Download'? Less clutter, straight to the point
3. 'Resources' - no idea what this might link to. It could be anything. Can it be made clearer?
4. 'Community' - is this the forum link? If so, call it what it is - 'Forum'
5. 'User Guide' - will it just be an end-user guide or more than that? Call it 'Documentation' and you're safe

Apart from that, looks nice and clean.

Franz · 2009-10-29 00:23:08

1. It's being worked on and will be integrated into the site design.
2. This was originally going to be "Download FluxBB" to make it clear that this is meant for downloading the software. As it is shorter and also contains the other sub-pages that fall into this category, it is now "Get FluxBB". That is straight to the point in my eyes.
3. The resources area will be the place to host and download modifications, plugins, styles and language packs. The only other option I see is "Extras".
4. No, it is more than just the forum.
5. This will be the wiki featuring end-user documentation. This is more likely to be worked on than the current one and it has been needed for a long time. There is virtually no user documentation around here.

DavidONE · 2009-10-29 00:50:15

1. "being worked on"? There's already one from the competition a while back - in use now as the favicon. Is that being dumped?
2. 'Download' is pretty obvious - what else would it be but FluxBB?!
3. 'Addons' perhaps? 'Resources' just tells the visitor nothing - it could be documentation, links to other sites, tutorials, etc. - 'mystery meat navigation'
4. A forum is possibly the most frequently clicked link on a project like this - I'd suggest that it should be available as a 'level 1' menu option
5. 'User Guide' suggests only end-user docs. Will it not contain info on installing, upgrading, template creation, plugin dev, core dev, roadmaps, etc.? Call it 'Wiki' or 'Documentation' and it's clear that it's more than just end-user stuff.

Plazzmex · 2009-10-29 00:51:07

3. The sources/extras also can be called Addons.

Edited:
DavidONE, You took words from my mouth..

Last edited by Plazzmex (2009-10-29 00:52:27)

Franz · 2009-10-29 01:18:12

1. Being worked on - o yes. There never was such a thing as a "competition". There was a thread with a collection of ideas and since then, Christian's logo has been the de-facto standard. We know that, so what we are working on is incorporating it into the site design. This does not necessarily mean that this exact logo will be used, but the overall idea will be kept. Now, don't spear me for this, you will most likely still recognize Christian's logo, so don't worry.
2. So is "Get FluxBB" - so what's the matter? I explained the reasons and unless you convince us why your suggestion really is better, we'll keep it this way.
3. View it from the other perspective: If you are looking for modifications, where would you search, if you saw these menu items? Home? About? Get FluxBB? Community? User guide? Probably not. And in my eyes, this is what's gonna happen. If they don't know what's behind the name, they either look or don't care. But in most cases, they will be looking for modifications etc. And then, this will be the obvious place, judging from the title. And that's why we tried to have a greater difference between "Get FluxBB" (downloading the software) and "Resources" (downloading additional stuff). And I personally wouldn't call them "addons", as that sounds too much like extensions or similar thing, but this section also contains styles, language packs etc. In that sense, I'd be ok with "extras", but not really "addons"...
4. Uh, yes. I cannot promise anything, but this might be changed somehow...
5. For this software, administrators and forum owners are users, too. Therefore, the title is still correct. Read Jamie's blog post again: the wiki will contain information about installation, upgrading, converting, administering as well as moderating the forum and actually using it. The reason for not naming it documentation was (quote Jamie) that this would "make it more user friendly sounding". Seems like that really depends on opinion, eh?

I hope I made my points clear. I'm not trying to be rude - and if it seems like I am, I deeply apologize.

DavidONE · 2009-10-29 01:34:12

OK, I can see you're see getting defensive and missing the points. As you were.

Darren · 2009-10-29 02:17:36

DavidONE wrote:

2. 'Download' is pretty obvious - what else would it be but FluxBB?!

Exactly, what else would it be? As this is FluxBB's website the Resources links is obviously going to contain FluxBB resources.

"Resources" does a good job of covering everything that will be available, there's no need to change that IMO.

FSX · 2009-10-29 10:41:49

DavidONE wrote:

2. 'Get FluxBB' - why not just 'Download'? Less clutter, straight to the point

'Download' could mean that it links to a page with downloads other than Fluxbb. See the website of PunBB to see an example.

DavidONE wrote:

3. 'Resources' - no idea what this might link to. It could be anything. Can it be made clearer?

'Resources' is pretty clear. Anything else would not fit or would be too long.

DavidONE wrote:

4. 'Community' - is this the forum link? If so, call it what it is - 'Forum'

Like lie2815 said. There's some more community stuff there.

DavidONE wrote:

5. 'User Guide' - will it just be an end-user guide or more than that? Call it 'Documentation' and you're safe

Every person that uses a product is a user, therefore 'User Guide' is correct.

Last edited by FSX (2009-10-29 10:42:53)

Reines · 2009-10-29 11:15:25

I know most of this has already been said but:

DavidONE wrote:

'Get FluxBB' - why not just 'Download'? Less clutter, straight to the point

It was originally called download but it was renamed because it contains things such as upgrading information, the converter tool, and information about accessing the SVN. Also it has a page recommended certain web hosts. It contains more than just the download links.

DavidONE wrote:

'Resources' - no idea what this might link to. It could be anything. Can it be made clearer?

I'd say Resources is fairly clear, but 'Addons' is a good suggestion too. It could be changed if others agree that it's better?

DavidONE wrote:

'Community' - is this the forum link?

No it has the IRC web chat client, forums and links to the international communities there.

DavidONE wrote:

A forum is possibly the most frequently clicked link on a project like this - I'd suggest that it should be available as a 'level 1' menu option

We could maybe add a direct link to it in the footer, would that be useful?

DavidONE wrote:

'User Guide' - will it just be an end-user guide or more than that?

It is the end-user guide (end-users being members, moderators and administrators). It will contain information about installing etc, as well looking after your forum and using the syndication (RSS). What it wont contain is development related information, so I'd say calling it documentation would be even less clear.

Last edited by Reines (2009-10-29 11:28:35)

faelar · 2009-10-29 12:01:00

What is missing here is a "demo" link, or at least a "screenshot" section (maybe in 'About' ?).
I know that a book should not be judged by its cover, but the first thing I care when searching for a good CMS, is if it is easy to use.
The next thing I take in account is the system requirements.
If I encounter any problem when installing, I will be looking for documentation (or a User Guide ).
And when I get the software running I try the many extensions/addons/resources available.
Of course it is only MY way of proceeding, but I hope it will help you with the website's layout.

It was originally called download but it was renamed because it contains things such as upgrading information, the converter tool, and information about accessing the SVN. Also it has a page recommended certain web hosts. It contains more than just the download links.

What I don't like with "Get" is that it lets me wonder if I will be charged for the software or not. I know that companies use "Download" for trial version and the like, but I simply 'feel' that a Download link is safer. Maybe there is enough space to add a little "(free)" next to "Get FluxBB v1.x.x" ?

It is the end-user guide (end-users being members, moderators and administrators). It will contain information about installing etc, as well looking after your forum and using the syndication (RSS). What it wont contain is development related information, so I'd say calling it documentation would be even less clear.

Can you merge both 'User Guide' and 'Development' in one link called 'Documentation' ? or will the 'Development' link contain more than just documentation ?

Franz · 2009-10-29 12:05:36

faelar wrote:

What is missing here is a "demo" link, or at least a "screenshot" section (maybe in 'About' ?).
I know that a book should not be judged by its cover, but the first thing I care when searching for a good CMS, is if it is easy to use.
The next thing I take in account is the system requirements.

Well, the official support forum is a clean install, so that could be called our demo

faelar wrote:

What I don't like with "Get" is that it lets me wonder if I will be charged for the software or not. I know that companies use "Download" for trial version and the like, but I simply 'feel' that a Download link is safer. Maybe there is enough space to add a little "(free)" next to "Get FluxBB v1.x.x" ?

As I think you're talking about the link on the start page: don't worry, this one is called "Download FluxBB". The one we were referring to in this thread is in the menu, which is the title of a whole section featuring all the stuff Reines mentioned - different ways to get FluxBB.

faelar wrote:

Can you merge both 'User Guide' and 'Development' in one link called 'Documentation' ? or will the 'Development' link contain more than just documentation?

Nah, "Development" is what's called "Trac" now. Sounds a little more understandable for people who don't know Trac and similar systems, don't you think?

DavidONE · 2009-10-29 13:45:00

OK, as WWIII hasn't errupted yet , I'll try and clarify:

The main links should provide for what visitors want in order of use and priority, so I'd suggest main menu like so:

> FluxBB (with logo) | Home . About . Download . Forum . Wiki . Addons . Development . Contact

1. No one is going to be confused about what they will get from that menu with the Download link. It's completely intuitive. To suggest otherwise is silly. It could also provide links to the addons / extras and then do away with the 'Addons' link.
2. Forum should be up front and available - it's always going to be the primary method of communication for most people. It's a real nuisance to have to go hunting for it.
3. There's some confusion over terminology. I'm not an 'end user'. I (usually) install and customise and hand over to end users. So, 'User Documentation' is misleading. Also, by calling it what is - Wiki - lets me know that it is community-edited. That's a selling point for me. A project that encourages community participation is far preferable to one that tries to keep everything 'under control'.
4. Calling the extras / addons 'Resources' is simply too vague - just on the dictionary definition: *Something that one uses to achieve an objective*. It tells me nothing about what might be there. To repeat: it could be documentation, links to other sites, tutorials, recommended tools, etc. 'Addons' is much more descriptive and covers modifications, plugins, styles and language packs. Just because Mozilla use 'addons' for browser plugins does not mean other projects can't use it.
5. 'Contact' could hold IRC, international forums, etc. - and if you wanted to offer paid support later, it would go here.

Minor details to some, but I think important.

HTH.

EDIT - Also, international forums should be linked from the main forum.

Last edited by DavidONE (2009-10-29 13:53:59)

Nickrober · 2009-10-29 16:23:20

I like it best the way that is proposed in the screenshot.

"Get FluxBB" is no less understanding than "Download". There's no need to do it like every other website does.

"Resources" is also plenty understandable in my opinion.

"Community" is plenty descriptive in my opinion.

Franz · 2009-10-29 17:29:10

DavidONE wrote:

The main links should provide for what visitors want in order of use and priority, so I'd suggest main menu like so:
> FluxBB (with logo) | Home . About . Download . Forum . Wiki . Addons . Development . Contact

Sounds wonderful, but again you're viewing it from your perspective only: looking for what you need the most.

Now, when we designed the menu, the focus was on having every page easily and logically accessible pretty quickly. Now look at your idea: although you have more links in the menu, not every page would fall into one of these categories anymore. What about hosting recommendations? IRC? These are just examples...
I'd be fine with having a link to the forums in the footer, because you're right, they're obviously quite important for this project (duh).

Oh, one more: If you really need to access certain pages really quickly, create a bookmark page for yourself. Use your browser's bookmark tool. Do you type in fluxbb.org in the address bar to get here? You're probably not going to look at the homepage again and again. So just type in fluxbb.org/forums (or create a bookmark for that). It's that simple. And we cannot suit everybody perfectly (which this thread is a perfect example for).

DavidONE wrote:

1. No one is going to be confused about what they will get from that menu with the Download link. It's completely intuitive. To suggest otherwise is silly. It could also provide links to the addons / extras and then do away with the 'Addons' link.

Sure? Imagine a man (or woman, sorry) looking for a style. It is quite possible that they would search under "downloads", because for them add-ons mean add-ons (additional functionality, extensions, mods, blabla...). It's not completely intuitive - not for everyone. Again: that's why we tried to make it possible for everyone looking for something specific that that person will find one (and only one) element in the menu that would be a logical headline.

DavidONE wrote:

2. Forum should be up front and available - it's always going to be the primary method of communication for most people. It's a real nuisance to have to go hunting for it.

Answered that above.

DavidONE wrote:

3. There's some confusion over terminology. I'm not an 'end user'. I (usually) install and customise and hand over to end users. So, 'User Documentation' is misleading. Also, by calling it what is - Wiki - lets me know that it is community-edited. That's a selling point for me. A project that encourages community participation is far preferable to one that tries to keep everything 'under control'.

First, it's not the "end user guide". And, as stated often enough above, you are user, too.
And once more, it's a selling point for you - not for everybody. There are also people who don't trust Wikipedia because every weirdo can go mess something up or simply write nonsense. It's not about being a wiki, that's what it is, but it has it's function and that is being an user guide (or whatever you want to call it).

DavidONE wrote:

4. Calling the extras / addons 'Resources' is simply too vague - just on the dictionary definition: *Something that one uses to achieve an objective*. It tells me nothing about what might be there. To repeat: it could be documentation, links to other sites, tutorials, recommended tools, etc. 'Addons' is much more descriptive and covers modifications, plugins, styles and language packs. Just because Mozilla use 'addons' for browser plugins does not mean other projects can't use it.

*sigh* How about "Extras"? It's not "addons", which is too specific or misleading, and it's not "resources", which is supposedly too vague? And this has nothing to do with Mozilla, but rather with what the word "addon" suggests - using your dictionary trick here:

a component that is added to something to improve it

Not sure language packs would fall under this category.

Also, I wouldn't like all of this to be nested too deeply (with the resources section being a "child" of the downloads area). Same thing you didn't like about the forums.

DavidONE wrote:

5. 'Contact' could hold IRC, international forums, etc. - and if you wanted to offer paid support later, it would go here.

That is actually a pretty good idea. But judging by what's already there, I'd rather add it to the footer. Actually, that's only necessary if you're talking about a contact form - which doesn't seem to be the case. And then, this title would be misleading, too (International forums beneath contact? Huh?)...

DavidONE wrote:

Also, international forums should be linked from the main forum.

I don't know, might be too official-looking (which they are not).

DavidONE wrote:

Minor details to some, but I think important.

Yup, let's just find some compromises, ok?

Last edited by Franz (2009-10-29 17:29:22)

DavidONE · 2009-10-29 18:12:53

lie2815 wrote:

...you're viewing it from your perspective only...

No, you're the one doing that. See how useful and constructive that observation is?
Your arguments against using 'Download' as a link to download the software are mainly nonsense. Either that or hundreds of projects have got it wrong and you've got it right with 'Get Name-of-project-that-people-already-know'. Why use one word when two or more would do the same job?!

lie2815 wrote:

Oh, one more: If you really need to access certain pages really quickly, create a bookmark page for yourself.

We're discussing the menu architecture for this site - not providing a lesson in how to use a browser. Why would that need explaining that to you?

lie2815 wrote:

...you are user, too...

No, I'm not. You appear to be defining words to justify whatever it is you originally thought was good idea. Many people that come to the project are not 'users' they are developers who take the script and install it for other people to *use*.
Here's a clear and simple definition of an addon, rather than the one you picked from somewhere: "something to expand something else". Language pack and all the others fit neatly in to that. And it's not a "trick" to reference and understand the meaning of words.
And isn't it laughable - a project for forum software isn't going to provide a main menu link to its own forum! Amazing.
I've seen people like you before in projects - immediately defensive and threatened by anyone who suggests you could have done things better. Let's just hope the forum software isn't influenced by this muddled, obstinate, self-justifying attitude.
I'll file this under "you can lead a horse to water...". Carry on as you were.

Franz · 2009-10-29 18:35:27

My goodness, there is no need to get personal or call my attitude nonsense. This started off by you asking questions about what you didn't understand (and couldn't yet, because you had only seen a picture) and me giving the reasons for why we do

I wrote:

I'd be fine with having a link to the forums in the footer, because you're right, they're obviously quite important for this project (duh)

I also wrote:

That is actually a pretty good idea.

Last but not least, I wrote:

Yup, let's just find some compromises, ok?

Is that looking like I am defensive and feel threatened?

And yes, now I'm being defensive, for the simple reason that you're being offensive. Nothing more, nothing less. I am (and I'm sure so is the rest of the team and community) completely open to discuss this in an objective and reasonable manner.

EDIT: I suggest you read this post by Smartys: http://fluxbb.org/forums/post/22162/#p22162

Last edited by Franz (2009-10-29 18:41:18)

Reines · 2009-10-29 19:48:26

DavidONE wrote:

Many people that come to the project are not 'users' they are developers who take the script and install it for other people to *use*.

I don't know if "many" is the right word there. Some sure, but the majority are not. User Guides is easier for less technical users to understand in my opinion, and I'd assume most developers would be smart enough to look under User Guides if they don't see a Documentation link. Again I think this was actually called Documentation at first, but we decided to change it. I'd quite like to have all the menu items one word if possible so it could possibly be changed back...

DavidONE wrote:

Here's a clear and simple definition of an addon, rather than the one you picked from somewhere: "something to expand something else". Language pack and all the others fit neatly in to that. And it's not a "trick" to reference and understand the meaning of words.

I'd actually have to agree here. Not with resources being unclear, but with addons being a better word to use.

DavidONE wrote:

And isn't it laughable - a project for forum software isn't going to provide a main menu link to its own forum!

No not really, but it would be sensible to have either a link to the forums (as a demo), or some screenshots to view.
I've added a direct link to it in the footer, and I think I'll maybe add a link suggesting to visit it for a demo, next to the "feature list" link on the index.

Gil · 2009-10-29 21:07:28

lie2815 wrote:

faelar wrote:
What is missing here is a "demo" link, or at least a "screenshot" section (maybe in 'About' ?).
Well, the official support forum is a clean install, so that could be called our demo wink

Not exactly : as a future 'user' (downloader), I'll be a future admin; I would like to know how are fluxBB administration panels. Screenshots and/or demo could be very useful I think.
Before downloading a new software, it is the first link I'm usually searching for.

About names: um, not very important; perfect names stand the test of time. The other will be changed later

'Get Flux' or 'download': understandable, no problem
Resources, Add-ons, Extensions, Extras: ditto. Maybe 'Resources' not precise enough
Contact : important, but should (could, at least) be added in the footer

Are these names dynamic menus (dropdowns) or just links, as in the current FluxBB site? .

Reines · 2009-10-29 21:10:42

Just links at the moment.

faelar · 2009-10-30 11:46:49

lie2815 wrote:

As I think you're talking about the link on the start page: don't worry, this one is called "Download FluxBB". The one we were referring to in this thread is in the menu, which is the title of a whole section featuring all the stuff Reines mentioned - different ways to get FluxBB.

Yes I was referring to the download link on the page. 'Get' is fine for the menu I think.

Gil wrote:

lie2815 wrote:
I wrote:
What is missing here is a "demo" link, or at least a "screenshot" section (maybe in 'About' ?).
Well, the official support forum is a clean install, so that could be called our demo wink
Not exactly : as a future 'user' (downloader), I'll be a future admin; I would like to know how are fluxBB administration panels. Screenshots and/or demo could be very useful I think.
Before downloading a new software, it is the first link I'm usually searching for.

Exactly what I was going to reply, you can't test (or at least view) the admin pannel of the official forum

Reines wrote:

I'd actually have to agree here. Not with resources being unclear, but with addons being a better word to use.

In fact 'resources' is fine for styles and extensions, but I can also include documentation in it. 'Addons' exclude style of the list. 'Modifications' maybe...

lie2815 wrote:

I wrote:
Can you merge both 'User Guide' and 'Development' in one link called 'Documentation' ? or will the 'Development' link contain more than just documentation?
Nah, "Development" is what's called "Trac" now. Sounds a little more understandable for people who don't know Trac and similar systems, don't you think?

That's what I was expecting. Usually Trac also includes a wiki (ex: Gajim's Trac). Will you put the development documentation on a Trac wiki ? on the same wiki than the User Guide ? or something else...
I think I see your point, you're trying to avoid confusion for developers seeking for documentation (should I click on 'documentation' or on 'development' ?).
I don't really like 'User Guide' though... maybe 'Manual' is a better choice ? As always just a proposition...

Meow · 2009-10-30 12:35:07

I wonder why DavidONE could get Reines' account.

Reines · 2009-10-30 12:38:21

I've added to the todo list to add a section under about with screenshots and so on showing the forums (including admin panel). A kinda "tour" of FluxBB.

The developer related documentation (such as coding styles, database table references, mod/style development info) will be in a wiki under the development area, separate from the guides aimed at users/mods/admins.

Meow wrote:

I wonder why DavidONE could get Reines' account.

The link he gave is to my blog, I took the screenshot that's on it, not him.

Ledo · 2009-10-30 13:54:56

What if we all wait to see what developers will do and then give feedback.

Probably the new page is in the development stage. And we the community don't have the whole picture yet of what it will be in the end?

So a bit of freedom and open mind won't hurt anybody. I think that is much more likely it will be better then before? Not that current one is bad. But it will be new. And it will have some new features probably?

I think it will be good.

Franz · 2009-10-30 16:26:06

faelar wrote:

In fact 'resources' is fine for styles and extensions, but I can also include documentation in it. 'Addons' exclude style of the list. 'Modifications' maybe...

I see your point, but I think it doesn't really matter if you see a link called "user guide" next to it...

Ledo wrote:

What if we all wait to see what developers will do and then give feedback. smile
Probably the new page is in the development stage. And we the community don't have the whole picture yet of what it will be in the end?
So a bit of freedom and open mind won't hurt anybody. I think that is much more likely it will be better then before? Not that current one is bad. But it will be new. And it will have some new features probably?
I think it will be good.

Thank you.

StevenBullen · 2009-10-31 23:21:22

I missed a great thread here.

Here is what I think... take it as you will.
2. I have no problem with 'Get FluxBB', unless the 'Download FluxBB v1.*' links direct to the same place. If so it would make more sense to call it 'Download FluxBB'. It's only 5 more characters
3. addons is better than resources.
4. Forum link should be prominent.

Forums

#1 2009-10-29 00:01:09

New website preview - feedback

#2 2009-10-29 00:23:08

Re: New website preview - feedback

#3 2009-10-29 00:50:15

Re: New website preview - feedback

#4 2009-10-29 00:51:07

Re: New website preview - feedback

#5 2009-10-29 01:18:12

Re: New website preview - feedback

#6 2009-10-29 01:34:12

Re: New website preview - feedback

#7 2009-10-29 02:17:36

Re: New website preview - feedback

#8 2009-10-29 10:41:49

Re: New website preview - feedback

#9 2009-10-29 11:15:25

Re: New website preview - feedback

#10 2009-10-29 12:01:00

Re: New website preview - feedback

#11 2009-10-29 12:05:36

Re: New website preview - feedback

#12 2009-10-29 13:45:00

Re: New website preview - feedback

#13 2009-10-29 16:23:20

Re: New website preview - feedback

#14 2009-10-29 17:29:10

Re: New website preview - feedback

#15 2009-10-29 18:12:53

Re: New website preview - feedback

#16 2009-10-29 18:35:27

Re: New website preview - feedback

#17 2009-10-29 19:48:26

Re: New website preview - feedback

#18 2009-10-29 21:07:28

Re: New website preview - feedback

#19 2009-10-29 21:10:42

Re: New website preview - feedback

#20 2009-10-30 11:46:49

Re: New website preview - feedback

#21 2009-10-30 12:35:07

Re: New website preview - feedback

#22 2009-10-30 12:38:21

Re: New website preview - feedback

#23 2009-10-30 13:54:56

Re: New website preview - feedback

#24 2009-10-30 16:26:06

Re: New website preview - feedback

#25 2009-10-31 23:21:22

Re: New website preview - feedback

Board footer