Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Amelotti is like the more literate version of SuperMAG.
- Jérémie
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Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
MattF wrote:
I may suffer from a lack of tact
With you insulting a lot of people, on several occurrences, I would have used very different words here...
To get back to the original point, I'm myself a nagged unvolunteered, and a jerked around user. I don't know which trench to dig into... 
- MattF
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Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Jérémie wrote:
MattF wrote:I may suffer from a lack of tact
With you insulting a lot of people, on several occurrences, I would have used very different words here...
Other peoples opinions I may have short shrift with, but very rarely directly at the person. That is generally reserved for you. 
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Since I started this thread. I request that posters please lay off the raw mudslinging. Try to stay relatively polite. I am sure that absolutely no malice is involved here. Good intentioned people are volunteering their time to work on free software.
The question is management, delegation, work allocation, and timing. Not intent. My frustration that Open Source is supposed to be empowering, not crippling. Aside from a complete code fork, it seems that we are basically 100% crippled by Paul's schedule? Are there any possible improvements or ideas that will help? Is there nothing the community can do to help? As an outsider, I am limited in the practical solutions I can suggest.
Personally, I hope that FluxBB pulls through, I don't want to switch back to phpBB or another platform. November is the month of change, and I look forward to what a few weeks might bring... whether there's a temporarily internal fork to complete markup, or Paul pulls through, or some other way to kick start development.
I'll be rooting.
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Amelotti wrote:
"1.2"
It's not about having another mediocre forum, there are plenty on the market. It's about having a platform that can be expanded and enhanced for a particular purpose. I'm interested in the latest version of Flux, because I plan to do things with it on my own. Walking one digit back, would cause problems with this expansion in the future...
You have half a good argument here. 1.2 is mediocre for people that just want something with a lot of features that will "just work." However, it's amazing for someone who wants to work with the code on their own site for whatever reason (integration, modification, etc). 1.3 looks to be great for both. Your desire for 1.3 is understandable, and justifiable, but your criticism of 1.2 is misplaced.
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
MattF wrote:
I may suffer from a lack of tact
Maybe it's the booze? 
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
michaeld wrote:
The question is management, delegation, work allocation, and timing. Not intent. My frustration that Open Source is supposed to be empowering, not crippling. Aside from a complete code fork, it seems that we are basically 100% crippled by Paul's schedule? Are there any possible improvements or ideas that will help? Is there nothing the community can do to help? As an outsider, I am limited in the practical solutions I can suggest.
I think there is little we can do now, we just need to wait for Paul to be finished, in the future hopefully we can plan things better.
michaeld wrote:
Personally, I hope that FluxBB pulls through, I don't want to switch back to phpBB or another platform. November is the month of change, and I look forward to what a few weeks might bring... whether there's a temporarily internal fork to complete markup, or Paul pulls through, or some other way to kick start development.
An internal fork wouldn't help, for the same reason we can't edit the code until Paul finishes the markup, one is not isolated from the other.
- Frank H
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Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
I had decided to not join these threads, but figured I'd post one post in one thread
IMO, that list (a)->(f), would work fine for a company, but, this isn't a company, it's a few individuals that use their own free time doing things that other might find usable. Therefore it's nearly impossible to follow that "solution list".
Time frames has been setup, and blown to pieces (and the dev team has been very transparent with that)
It's impossible to know how much free time you have in the future, it's not like it's a 9-5 workday.
Perhaps if someone would pay an individual it would be possible, but I don't see that happening...
1.3 is a big rewrite, so hard to split it into smaller milestones, and alot of things are bundled together
With the current way of working, I don't see it as a problem, some tasks are serial, some parallel
Letting everyone commit things ain't the way to go, but, you're free to do changes and mail it to the devs, if it's good enough I'm sure it'll make it's way in.
I do appreciate your effort to try to help, but projects done in peoples own free time cannot be done in the same manner as companies with paid employees (and paying customers).
_______________
Oh, and one thing I think was funny in this thread, first:
"I have absolutely no knowledge of programming"
Then:
"I'm interested in the latest version of Flux, because I plan to do things with it on my own."
To be totally honest, I think it'll take you longer to learn to code good PHP, than the release of FluxBB 1.3 ...
Well that's the last post (for a while) I'll make in these "troll friendly"-threads...
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
I have friends (programmers). Besides, I just wonder why do they rewrite the engine if the workable copy is already here. That sounds more like 1.4
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Amelotti, you're new to the site, you obviously haven't been following things, and you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to css or any programming. Why don't you just sit back for a bit until you've been around here long enough to contribute something to the discussion.
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Don't give this, I don't have time to relax.
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
And forget the css, even an idiot like me can edit css. Anyone can edit css. It's about some unidentified internal bugs in php (or no problem at all).
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Stop making uninformed posts. What I said wasn't a request, if you continue to make posts like this I will ban you.
Markup/CSS is not as simple as you may think.
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Amelotti: Why so aggressive? They're doing this on their spare time, be happy and grateful instead. And it's not that easy as you think, trust me.
People complaining about free stuff from people doing it for free on their spare time is the worst kind of people I know. I can't stand them. So I want to thank the FluxBB crew for doing the best they can, using their time to code and not get anything in return (except thanks and maybe donations from grateful people ).
- Jérémie
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Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Amelotti wrote:
And forget the css, even an idiot like me can edit css.
Good CSS can be quite more complex than PHP.
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Jérémie wrote:
Amelotti wrote:And forget the css, even an idiot like me can edit css.
Good CSS can be quite more complex than PHP.
Especially thanks to different browsers and their amazing skills to f*** up CSS
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
The whole thing about this is, they're volunteers. They have no obligation to us what so ever. We're using software they develop on their own free time. How would you feel if you were aiding someone with something and they all of a sudden got ungrateful because you had to stop for personal reasons? Just sit back and relax, and like others have said, use the 1.2 version.
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Amelotti wrote:
And forget the css, even an idiot like me can edit css.
There is an idea in that sentence that is correct. It begins with "an" and ends with "me". Care to guess which?
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Please don't feed the trolls.
I guess we covered this issue. The current plan is that we wait, as Connor says.
Some final suggestions... all optional, of course:
* DONATIONS: Building on xintron's comment above. After 1.3 is out, and some confidence is restored, I see no need for Open Source projects to be purely volunteer. No one will get rich, not even a little, but it's possible that the community could put a bounty on certain bugs, or extension requests, or have a general fund (it might be a few hundred $, €, £, etc), to help reward developers, and cover minor expenses.
* ACCOUNTABILITY and CREDIT: It's fine of some developers want to be totally anonymous, with wacky pseudonyms. However, for those who are willing, I would encourage a step towards more accountability and credit. A simple credits page would list names, bios, and core responsibilities of current and past developers. Especially for younger developers, I think it's a nice item on a resume. The page would also credit donors and sponsors, who provide financial support (money), or in-kind support (e.g., hosting). Extension developers would be included in this.
* DEVELOPER RELATIONS: It's possible that after 1.3, it would be worthwhile polishing the process for collaboration on the code. The current plans for extensions (and a relatively small core) are a superlative step in that direction. And a better extensions directory is needed. It should also be a bit easier for knowledgeable community members to checkout and commit code, pending review. I don't suggest a free-for-all, but some official processes that will draw in more PHP developers, even if for only small bursts of work.
All of the above are easy to implement, and would nudge FluxBB towards a more institutionalized and serious project.
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
We have said we will accept donations once 1.3 is out.
Your second point, all the developers names are on the site, and I don't really know what you mean by accountability really.
We are working on an extension repository, and we have said once 1.3 is out we will plan more and have a better roadmap, and also involve extension developers more.
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Connor wrote:
We have said we will accept donations once 1.3 is out.
Your second point, all the developers names are on the site, and I don't really know what you mean by accountability really.
We are working on an extension repository, and we have said once 1.3 is out we will plan more and have a better roadmap, and also involve extension developers more.
Great. Forgive if I was stating the obvious... think of it as supporting the planned. I don't follow the forums all the time, so I am likely out of date.
Regarding credits... this was a small point, not a criticism. On http://fluxbb.org/about/ you could expand the description of the team, including 1-2 sentences of biography, and 1-2 sentences about their roles or interest or expertise. This is just to put more of a face on the project. Right now it reads a bit like a sob story. You could add a "team" page, and move the bios there.
Regarding the extensions repository... you'd talked about that before, and it's a great idea. You might also enhance the ability of the community to work on code. Though the extensions repository might be sufficient.
P.S. I see Paul's commits in Trac. Very exciting!
Re: Don't nag the volunteers vs. Don't jerk around the users
Everybody is quite bored, since there's no technical stuff to post about, people spend time talking about this. No offence to anybody, I think most people isn't even aware.
Anyway... I saw exactly the same, Paul's comits and i thought the exact same: very exciting. Though is says tehy're provisory changes.
Now... a thing i find very handy personaly, the phpxref thing.
hcgtv, could you add fluxbb 1.3 to phpxref.com?
EDIT: forgot to mention. Since the developers are not busy developing ATM, I would recommend somebody with the appropriate permissions to fix the problems in the wiki.
Last edited by Pedro (2008-11-08 16:25:09)